Xsara II 2.0 HDI 90 limp mode

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dave_xsara
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Xsara II 2.0 HDI 90 limp mode

Post by dave_xsara »

Hi.

Was driving up motorway yesterday at a steady 70mph and the car suddenly dropped into limp mode.
After approx 1 minute (if even) the car returned to full power and journey onwards was uneventful.

I've just taken the lexia to the car to see what happened and I'm guessing that it is the fuel pump. But as there are a lot of gubbins in the fuel system of the hdi can someone tell me what is going on here? Refer to attached images for the faults.

What I noticed when running the global test e that when the bsi was completing, the fuel gauge would drop to empty and the low level warning would come on and remain on until power was cycled. If this normal.

Anyhow, images attached. Can anyone inform me what this could be related to?


Thanks.
Attachments
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dave_xsara
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Re: Xsara II 2.0 HDI 90 limp mode

Post by dave_xsara »

Just re-reading this and I realised that the BSI has faults on alternator and the battery charge - could this be more likely a power issue which caused the fuel system to cut out temporarily?
In the cabin there was no noticable power loss.

As there was no timestamps on the faults I can't tell if they are related or whether these are from I was doing previous work and may have disconnected the battery.
wheeler
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Re: Xsara II 2.0 HDI 90 limp mode

Post by wheeler »

dave_xsara wrote:
03 Jun 2020, 23:19

What I noticed when running the global test e that when the bsi was completing, the fuel gauge would drop to empty and the low level warning would come on and remain on until power was cycled. If this normal.
Its totally normal for stuff like that to happen during a diagnostic communication, you usually also get ABS & airbag system faults flashing up when its talking to the respective system.

Ignore the evaporator temp sensor, speed info fault & the brake signal fault. They are known 'phantom' faults & will be in nearly every RHY/RHZ engine you scan.
Although before ignoring the brake switch fault just confirm the brake lights are working correctly.

If you had a charging issue I reckon there would almost certainly have been other electrical symptoms, I'd say the fault you experienced would almost certainly be caused by P0190. First off how old is the fuel filter? is this a Bosch or Siemens system?

EDIT: Just checked & it turns out the alternator fault code is also a phantom fault.
Attachments
Xsara MUX.jpg
dave_xsara
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Re: Xsara II 2.0 HDI 90 limp mode

Post by dave_xsara »

Is a bosch unit. Probably about 10yo at best.
I know the contacts on the fuel gauge were worn badly so it's been there a while.
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Re: Xsara II 2.0 HDI 90 limp mode

Post by dave_xsara »

wheeler wrote:
05 Jun 2020, 13:22
Ignore the evaporator temp sensor, speed info fault & the brake signal fault. They are known 'phantom' faults & will be in nearly every RHY/RHZ engine you scan.
Although before ignoring the brake switch fault just confirm the brake lights are working correctly.
Why is it when you go into the live data, are the clutch and accelerator presses detected, but the brake switch is not?
I checked and the brake lights work correctly.
If you had a charging issue I reckon there would almost certainly have been other electrical symptoms, I'd say the fault you experienced would almost certainly be caused by P0190. First off how old is the fuel filter? is this a Bosch or Siemens system?
Filter was changed 06/2019 - about 5k miles ago. Bosch fuel pump circa 15 years old.
wheeler
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Re: Xsara II 2.0 HDI 90 limp mode

Post by wheeler »

There may be more than one brake switch in live data, sometimes a second one for cruise control if fitted. Failing that it may just be a software glitch.
Which fuel pump was replaced? could be signs of the LP pump failing, fairly common, id say 15 years is a long time to get out of a LP pump on one of these.
dave_xsara
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Re: Xsara II 2.0 HDI 90 limp mode

Post by dave_xsara »

This has happened twice now. First time I was in the outside lane of motorway when car suddenly died and I had to swerve over onto the hard shoulder. Luckily it was not at rush hour or there would have been a massive accident.
Hence, why I am keen to get this resolved. It's okay at the minute as the roards are quiet and I'm not commuting, but it can be a bit unnerving when it happens.

It was the in-tank LP pump replaced 15 years ago.
HP regulator has replaced recently to resolve some severe hunting.
dave_xsara
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Re: Xsara II 2.0 HDI 90 limp mode

Post by dave_xsara »

Twice this evening whilst drivign on motorway the fuel gauge dropped to completely empty and orange fuel light started flashing. Can back on after about a minute orso both time. Didn't notice any power drop, but it was slightly hunting more than usual.

Wiring issue or pump issue?
wheeler
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Re: Xsara II 2.0 HDI 90 limp mode

Post by wheeler »

Have you had a look at the connector on top of the in tank fuel pump? The orange low fuel light flashes like this if you switch on the ignition with the pump/sender unplugged or open circuited.
Id make sure its securely seated & the connections look good, give them a clean. After that im sure the wiring runs up under the centre console through a big round twist connector right above the handbrake adjuster, this often gets disconnected to adjust the handbrake, maybe not locked together properly?? worth a look.
dave_xsara
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Re: Xsara II 2.0 HDI 90 limp mode

Post by dave_xsara »

Rechecked after the gauge issues.
All faults as previous except the P0190 was not there this time.
Console connection was fine. Cleaned terminals on the in tank pump. So will see what happens now.
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Re: Xsara II 2.0 HDI 90 limp mode

Post by dave_xsara »

IMG_20200722_205836.jpg
Got P0190 again this evening.
I noticed that the fuel pressure is 290 bar. The cause is still not confirmed yet. Any ideas?
dave_xsara
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Re: Xsara II 2.0 HDI 90 limp mode

Post by dave_xsara »

Same thing happened this evening when brother was driving. Went to cross road into our lane and car went into lump mode plus EML illuminated.
Just taken the lexia it and got p0571, p0221, p0110 and a fuel sender short circuit.

There are no timestamps so I can't figure out the sequence of the faults and if they are all interrelated.

I had noticed that the car was idling slightly higher than normal - just over 1000rpm instead of usual 750/800rpm.

I have no idea how to diagnose an intermittent fault, so any help appreciated.
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Rhothgar
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Re: Xsara II 2.0 HDI 90 limp mode

Post by Rhothgar »

Is it an EDC15C2 Bosch ECU, Dave?

EDIT: Ignore! I can see it is from the Lexia session.

Give me some time to look into this. I have the Diagnostics manual for that ECU.

Intermittent faults can be a mare...
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Re: Xsara II 2.0 HDI 90 limp mode

Post by Rhothgar »

Can't look in massive depth at the moment and I do not have wiring diagrams for your vehicle so you are on your own there unless Marc (Givemeabreak) has them and you donate to be able to access them.

I'm only a beginner at diagnostics but I learnt a lot last year with my 2.0HDi.

Fault Code 6 in the Diagnostics states:-

The engine runs at accelerated idle speed, then accelerates but with reduced torque (engine warm)

Check to be made:-
1) Battery voltage
2) Mechanical fault: accelerator pedal, accelerator cable
3) Coolant thermistor function
4) Oil vapour recycling system - fluid level (Not sure why it has this for Xantia. Presumably this is the Eolys system?)
5) Air flowmeter - flowmeter wiring.
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Re: Xsara II 2.0 HDI 90 limp mode

Post by Rhothgar »

P0190 Fuel pressure sensor (major fault)

This will be located on your fuel rail somewhere. On a Xantia, it is underneath and behind the fuel filter. Horrible to access.

With connector still connected to component:-

It should be 3 pin and requires 5V. As this is a temp fault, you want to check your wiring back from it. Maybe run engine and do a waggle test to see if you can cause the intermittance.

Test between pins 1 and 3 the outermost ones for 4.8 - 5.15V with ignition switched on.

Between Pins 1 - 2, you should see 0.5V with engine stopped. At 200 bars, pressure, you should see around 1V. The signal will vary between 0.3 and 4.7V. Ideally, you need an oscilloscope.

P0221 No. 2 Position sensor for accelerator pedal (major fault)

Emergency mode on this component shows 1200rpm idle or thereabouts.

With component connected:-

Pins 3 - 4 should show between 4.8 - 5.15V.
Pins 2 - 3 Linear variation of the voltage from the "throttle released" position to the throttle pedal full down" position: 0.28 - 1.6V

With connector disconnected:-
Pins 2 - 4 you should see infinite Ohms.
Pins 2 - 3 Ditto
Pins 2 - 4 If a short circuit to earth occurs while driving, the engine speed drops to 1200rpm. While operating the starter, the accelerator pedal position information is not taken into account.
NOTE: The simultaneous pressing of the brake pedal and the accelerator pedal will cause the following fault to appear: "brake pedal sensor incoherence".


P0110 (minor fault)
Air Temp sensor built into MAF if you have the VDO/Siemens unit

Between Pins 1 - 3, you should see between 2500-5000 Ohms between 20 degrees C air temperature and 5 degrees air temperature (ie current weather conditions)

Does the engine run on after switching off?

My money is on the wiring to either the fuel pressure sensor or the accelerator pedal sensor or maybe fault fuel pressure sensor (but I wouldn't go just swapping parts out). You need to narrow it down.

Intermittent faults I would hazard are more likely to be wiring.

Have you ever had the clutch changed? Especially around the time the fault started to occur because, as I recall, there is a splice near the gearbox which carries signals to either the MAF and the throttle sensor (well there is on a Xantia) 22MOT loom from memory. That can get damaged. I think it links to the FPS too. I'd need to check.