C4 excl. 1.6e-Hdi... am I being conned?

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rmunns
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C4 excl. 1.6e-Hdi... am I being conned?

Post by rmunns »

This car, bought June 2019, has been a nightmare. It's almost too long a story to tell, suffice it to say that this could well end up in court. To try to nail this down, could someone please help with advice regarding what I am being told. Two diagnostics, separate garages, both show the same 6 faults: U1218 U1218 P0263 P0269 P0272 P0266.
These are described as CAN - message not possible for the first two (I don't know why this is printed twice). Then the Ps say the four cylinders are out of tolerance.

So then I'm told the cost to repair. One garage 1400 euros, the other 1550euros. Each plus labour about 300euros.

What I can't for the life of me understand is why all 4 injectors need replacing (at 260euros each).

Please could anyone throw any light on this?

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Re: C4 excl. 1.6e-Hdi... am I being conned?

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Roger, they are correct I'm afraid.

There is a Technical Service Bulletin (b1hw017eq0) for this problem where these codes are presented. Normally the TSBs are chargeable, but I managed to source the content:

Combustion noise in the presence of one or more of the following fault codes: P0263, P0266, P0269, P0272

Symptoms:

Llighting up of the engine diagnosis lamp, Misfiring, Motor jerking, Excessive combustion noise in the engine.

Cause:
Noise reduction and correction of the injection nozzles out of tolerance.

Repair:
  • Querying of the error codes.
  • Replacement of the diesel injector (s).
  • Replacement of the noise insulation of the diesel injectors.
Parts Required
  • Diesel injection nozzles (part number depending on the vehicle definition) (quantity depending on the result of the check).
  • Centering rings (part number depending on vehicle definition) (quantity depending on the result of the check).
  • Diesel injector gasket (part number depending on vehicle definition) (quantity depending on the result of the check).
  • Support pins for fork (part number depending on vehicle definition) (quantity depending on the result of the check).
  • Flanges of the diesel injectors (part number depending on the vehicle definition) (quantity depending on the result of the check).
  • Screwing the flanges of the diesel injection nozzles (part number depending on the vehicle definition) (quantity depending on the result of the check).
  • High-pressure fuel lines (part number depending on vehicle definition) (quantity depending on the result of the check).
  • 1 noise insulation (ET number 1982H2).
  • 1 strand of fuel return lines (part number depending on vehicle definition).
Now there is no indication of a recall under the vehicle VIN, but this occurred on several models with these engines up to build date 12836 (31 December 2011). Your build date was 25th October 2010.

This was obviously not normal and Citroen made a contribution I understand for vehicles out of warranty - but the amount of the contribution was dependent on the age and the mileage and whether it had been serviced. So I would certainly pursue it.

So your garages are quoting to do the recommended repairs above I suspect.

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Re: C4 excl. 1.6e-Hdi... am I being conned?

Post by rmunns »

Thank you Marc.

The galling thing is that the car, for 99% of the time is fine. It is just that it occasionally misfires, but only slightly and isn't bad. The real issue is that I am certain I was sold a car when the seller did not disclose a known fault. If it can be proved, then (a) he broke the law and could be fined, as well as (b) he's liable to buy back the car at the purchase price or paying to mend the car.

The 'service' light was alight when I drove the car away from the garage, I hadn't seen it on the test run because the screen brightness was right down. And to further complicate things, I bought through an intermediary garage and one does wonder why the owner of the car elected to do that. Intermediary garages are common in France.

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Re: C4 excl. 1.6e-Hdi... am I being conned?

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Ok, so the issue was known in PSA - as they wouldn't have issued the TSB (remember these are not made public - only the dealer network and approved garages can access them). The issue you have as I see it is, was the garage / dealer who sold it aware of the fault codes at the time of sale? - if the engine management light was not presenting at the point of sale, they could refute there was a problem.

In any case, I would of taken this to a Citroen main dealer, quoted the TSB reference above and argue with Citroen over getting them to cough up for a contribution towards the parts and labour. I don't know what sort of mileage you have done and whether it has been fully serviced - but those would be determining factors as to how much, if any, contribution they would make.

Otherwise, the courts may be your only other redress - but you would need to ascertain the date when those faults were first triggered - and I think we've discussed this in a prior post - but you would need to get to a friendly garage and ask them to locate the historical fault log contained in Diagbox, identify these 4 codes, look for the earliest date they presented and print it out as evidence.

So even if the fault was temporarily cleared (being that the problem is only just starting to present) there may be evidence that is started to happen before your purchase, regardless if the engine management light was on at the time of purchase or not.

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Post by rmunns »

Marc, the light was on when I drove the car away from the dealer. I returned after a few minutes (traffic) and got them to sign a piece of paper I had written to the effect that there was a problem. They maintain that the service light was on because the diesel filter needed replacing, which they arranged (at another garage). That did not stop to slight missing and after another three or four weeks (several phone calls later) it went back AND they replaced the fuel filter again!! Problem still there. The latest statement from them is that the diagnosis shows the mileage when the prob occurred and that mileage is after I bought the car (176500 I bought, 176850 problem started). I didn't fall down from a coconut tree, it's obvious that skulduggery is going on, but law requires absolute proof. I have joined a consumer group and their legal team will hopefully agree to take up the case against the garage &/or the vendor. Things go slow in France.

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Re: C4 excl. 1.6e-Hdi... am I being conned?

Post by myglaren »

Looks like the sellers are crooks. Hope you can resolve this without too much trouble.

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Re: C4 excl. 1.6e-Hdi... am I being conned?

Post by crapday69 »

Aren't major faults on the likes of the engine and gearbox covered with a 6 month warranty. The law stats that the faults must have been there when you bought the car wether the dealer knew about them or not???

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Re: C4 excl. 1.6e-Hdi... am I being conned?

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Stick with it Roger.

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Re: C4 excl. 1.6e-Hdi... am I being conned?

Post by rmunns »

Thanks for all your comments, help and best wishes. I'll get there I think.

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Re: C4 excl. 1.6e-Hdi... am I being conned?

Post by danlat1415 »

Sorry to hear you're having issues with your new car.

I have the same engine in my 2014 C4 Picasso exclusive 1.6 e-HDi

I also had the injector fault code - P0272 but this just related to 1 injector (injector 4).


Instead of taking to my dealer to get it replaced, I first tried a diesel fuel additive injector clear.

this is the one I used;
https://www.wynns.eu/product/formula-go ... treatment/


I filled my fuel up with premium diesel (not standard diesel), and added a full bottle of this to a full fuel tank.

I then ran through a full fuel tank, filled up with premium diesel again (but no additive).
Ran through the fuel as normal

Then filled up again with premium fuel and added another full bottle of Wynn's Fuel Injector Cleaner Gold.



This fully cleaned up the fuel injector issue for me - no misfiring and the fault code disappeared itself
(I have Diagbox, so I can check my own fault codes regulary).

The additive should work after one bottle - but for the cost and piece of mind, I did it twice.

I now add this to my 3rd or 4th full fuel fill up to keep everything clean.


I would HIGHLY recommend that you try a diesel fuel injector cleaner additive first - before going through all of that cost and issue with the garages.

It is possible you had a bad batch of fuel, or the fuel filter hasn't been replaced enough, causing the injectors to get clogged up.
Try this first and see how you get on.
Last edited by danlat1415 on 24 Feb 2020, 16:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: C4 excl. 1.6e-Hdi... am I being conned?

Post by crapday69 »

If there is a Costco near you with feel station, then they do a premium diesel cheaper that ordinary from the supermarkets.It claims to keep your injectors clean and I've been using it for over a year now.

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Re: C4 excl. 1.6e-Hdi... am I being conned?

Post by GiveMeABreak »

This is a PSA-known particular issue with this engine when all these fault codes come up together - and concerns the injector tolerances being out and the insulation noise - so Roger wants to follow this up legally as a 'known issue' by the seller before he bought it.

But for you other chaps with the DV6C engine on the Picasso, I would keep an eye out - just in case.

Useful tips otherwise chaps.

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Re: C4 excl. 1.6e-Hdi... am I being conned?

Post by danlat1415 »

Sorry - I only just noticed yours is a 2011 model.
Mine is 2014, a newer version but uses the same engine.

I hope you get this sorted.
Whilst your queries are ongoing with the garages/legal stuff, there is no harm in using a diesel fuel injector cleaner additive in your fuel tank in the meantime.
Whilst your issue may be a known issue, if it clears up with an additive, then that's a bonus for you, if not, then nothing lost and at least you've tried it.
Last edited by danlat1415 on 25 Feb 2020, 20:31, edited 1 time in total.

crapday69
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Re: C4 excl. 1.6e-Hdi... am I being conned?

Post by crapday69 »

what about taking the fuel filter off and filling it with a cleaning additive, thus giving a good quick clean. I done those with my Xantia years ago so hopefully it still works with the HDi engines. If I'm wrong here then hopefully someone will pop up and tell us before you do this.

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Re: C4 excl. 1.6e-Hdi... am I being conned?

Post by rmunns »

Hi Thanks all for your suggestions. I've just come back to this thread - I'll try the additive .