Relay 2.2HDI 120

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onetruecharlatan
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Relay 2.2HDI 120

Post by onetruecharlatan »

Hi all,

First post, so here goes:

During the bad weather in November, I got caught in a flood and one of the cylinders was hydro locked. Got rescued and the following day I removed the injectors, disabled the fuel pump and turned the engine over. iirc, it was the 2nd cylinder from the left, (as you look at the engine), that was locked and it duly ejected the water and all seemed ok upon inspection. I repleced the injector seals and refit the injectors.

Engine started as expected, no drama, no excessive smoke that I recall, so I assumed all was good to go. The following few days I drove the van around and the only issue I has was that it appeared to be down on power, in fact, the turbo wasn't engaging at all. Still no excessive smoking, idle was good, just low power.

I did a quick search and Youtube threw up a few videos of EGR failure and wouldn't you know it, that appeared to show the same issues I was experiencing. The one video I saw about EGR replacement from start to finish had the bolts snap so I was at least prepared for the worst. I ordered a new EGR from a German supplier, (basically half the cost of Citroen) and 2 new gaskets. I had to make 2 journeys for work before it arrived, and at 80 mile each way, I was nervous to say the least. I had to climb a very steep hill of approx 1 mile long and on the first attempt, I was down to 2nd gear, billowing thick, black smoke and doing approx 20 MPH by the time I reached the top. She normally flies up said hill in top at 70 MPH with over a tonne on board. She was not happy. 2nd time I took an A road route but it wasn't much better.

With christmas deliveries and the fact it was coming from Germany, it took 2 weeks to arrive and then the same bolts broke as in the video I'd watched so I had to order a tool I didn't posses to help revove the snapped threads. Another week went by in the meantime.

So today, I have new bolts, gaskets and EGR valve. I have put them all back together but on a rough tarmac driveway, in the damp, with a toolbox of "essential" tools, (I'm by no means a mechanic, but am not mechanically inept), this was not an easy task.

I fire her up, (the idle had become lumpy, (akin to "hunting"), when I came back from my 2nd long distance trip and had not been run for 3 weeks, give or take), the idle was instanly smoother and once warm, on gentle acceleration, clouds of black soot was ejected from the exhaust, but I expected that. I had removed the inlet manifold, removed the seals, (all were good), and scraped as much of the carbon out as was feasable, then cleaned it out with brake cleaner.

I drove her off the drive and it felt like there may have been some turbo assitance this time but as I drove away, I left a trail of soot on the road behind me. It seems "hesitant" under load and is still sooty, the anti pollution light remains on. This has come on in the past as I don't put many miles on it but when I take the 80 mile trip down the motorway, this light has always cleared, due to the longer duration of higher operating temperatures I'm guessing.

What might I do from this point forward? It's obviously not right but would further driving clear the sooty emmisions? Air filter is clean. What else can I/should I check? Would the turbo need looking at after a hydro lock?

In case it was n't obvious from the title, she is:

2008 Citroen RELAY III H2L3 VAN, TYPE 16, 2.2 HDI, 120 PUMA, Manual gearbox 6.

Any and all suggestions are obviously very welcome and I apologise for the epic.

Never experienced this before and pror to the hydro locking, she has always ran buttery smooth.

Charlatan.
Peter.N.
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Re: Relay 2.2HDI 120

Post by Peter.N. »

I had this happen once with a Perkins engine, actually someone else did using my van! It resulted in a major overhaul as it had bent a con rod and taken a chunk out of the bottom of the block, although the latter seemed to cause no ill effects.

Yours was obviously less destructive, if the engine starts OK and ticks over evenly it doesn't sound to serious but it could be that the inrush of water damaged the turbo. Try disconnecting the air inlet pipe from the manifold, if it stops the smoke the problem is with the turbo or associated piping or air filter, I take it you did replace the air filter.

Peter
onetruecharlatan
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Re: Relay 2.2HDI 120

Post by onetruecharlatan »

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the info.

I only visually inspected the air filter and it looked used, rather than past it, but obviously not new. I didn't replace it, but if a brand new filter is all it will need then of course, that's what I'll be doing.

I'll try disconnecting the air inlet. I assume you mean the pipe that connects from the intercooler to the left side of inlet manifold, where the intake air pressure sensor is located? Talking of which, I read that this sensor can go bad. Might it have been affected during this foobah? I can order both air filter and a new sensor, delivered from Germany for less than just the air filter form either GSF or eBay, so I guess I might just do that.

Steve.
Peter.N.
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Re: Relay 2.2HDI 120

Post by Peter.N. »

I would try taking the air filter out just to prove a point but if its been saturated a new one would be a good move.

Yes the pipe from the intercooler to the inlet manifold. If that stops the smoke it will at least show you where the problem lies. Sensors are usually fairly reliable but the water probably hasn't done it any good.

Peter
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EDC5
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Re: Relay 2.2HDI 120

Post by EDC5 »

First thing would be to get the codes read. That should immediately help you narrow it down.

My suspicions are perhaps that the turbo actuation mechanism has become jammed in the fully shut position not allowing any boost to build causing the soot etc.

But without first narrowing it down it could be any number of sensors / faults that could cause this to happen.
onetruecharlatan
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Re: Relay 2.2HDI 120

Post by onetruecharlatan »

Air intake removed - still black smoke driving around the block.
Air filter removed, (as well) - still smokey, just revving on driveway.

It felt, after removing air intake and driving around for a few mins, as if it's being "choked", like there's a restriction, which is how it felt before I fitted the new EGR and cleaned out the intake manifold. Having chosen just to rev the engine on the drive after air filter removal, I don't know how that might translate on the road.

If anyone has a Lexia in the Birmingham area that would be able to check the codes for me, I'd appreciate that very much.

@EDC5 - Do you have experience, or anyone else for that matter, of replacing a turbo actuator on the PUMA engine? I don't have access to a lift and my ramps aren't designed for the van. How difficult is going to be swapping that out, lying on my back with 4 inches of space between my face and the back of the block?

Anyone know of a Citroen/PUMA independant specialist in the Birmingham area that has facilities I could get access to for them to do the work, (she doesn't like small spaces), should it prove impossible on the driveway? The amount of work room that ISN'T available on these units is beyond a joke.

I guess until I have the new air filter and MAP in my hand, I'll be twiddling my thumbs.

I'll keep you posted, Steve.
Peter.N.
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Re: Relay 2.2HDI 120

Post by Peter.N. »

If you are still getting black smoke with the air intake removed I don't think a filter will make any difference. I wonder if the intake manifold pressure sensor is faulty? You could try disconnecting it.

Peter
onetruecharlatan
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Re: Relay 2.2HDI 120

Post by onetruecharlatan »

I watched this video -



Pity he didn't show the smoke before and after, but he didn't say the new EGR valve had completely cured the smoke, akin to my scenario. So, based on that this video, I have now ordered a new diesel filter to go with the air filter, (can't hurt right, not changed in my ownership and 20k miles from me). Also ordered some cat cleaner and the Dipetane he showed. I only removed the injectors and wiped them clean, so I guess they "could be" fouled.

Once the new MAP sensor has arrived, I'll swap it out and let you know if/how it affected the issue.

Thanks again Peter, Steve.
Last edited by myglaren on 27 Jan 2020, 18:29, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Video link
onetruecharlatan
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Re: Relay 2.2HDI 120

Post by onetruecharlatan »

Not possesing the patience of a saint, I decided, (whilst waiting for the new bits to arrive), to remove the MAP sensor and see what happened.

What do you know - no smoke on tickover.
Drove around the block - no smoke, revving as high as 3k.

Still low power but I haven't reconnected the air intake pipe, so fingers crossed, it's just the MAP sensor that went bad.

I'll keep you posted, Steve.
Peter.N.
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Re: Relay 2.2HDI 120

Post by Peter.N. »

That sounds like the result you wanted! Sounds like the problem, obviously injecting more fuel than it can burn. Perhaps it got water in it. :wink: As soon as you get the turbo back functioning it should be back to full power - unless water got into anything else.

Peter
onetruecharlatan
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Re: Relay 2.2HDI 120

Post by onetruecharlatan »

Here we go:

Saturday 01/02
Fitted new:
Air filter, Fuel filter, MAP sensor, EGR valve

Put Dipetane and RAC fuel additive into fuel tank.

Initial startup - anti pollution light still on, some black smoke on light revs, (less than 3k). Left it running on driveway for 40 mins or so, less smoke on light revs. Didn't drive it.

Sunday 02/02:
Startup - no smoke, light revs, no smoke.

Driving, (approx 15 miles) - Anti pollution light still on, pulled off driveway/driving up short road - no smoke. Low power.

Driving on major A road - no smoke, (that was visible in the side mirrors at least), won't rev past 3k, low power.

Got home, revved on driveway, black smoke.

Removed MAP sensor loom connection, revved freely past 3k - NO SMOKE.

Took it out again, no smoke up road. Major A road - again, no smoke that was visible in side mirrors. Still low power.

I have heard the turbo whistle whilst driving it today, although not as loud as you would expect. The exhaust note has changed, sounds "muffled" for want of a better description. Still, MAP plugged in or not, LOW POWER/NO TURBO assistance.

What are your thoughts? I'd appreciate them greatly.

Steve.
Hell Razor5543
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Re: Relay 2.2HDI 120

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

I wonder (but do NOT know) if a vacuum pipe has developed a leak (or if the vacuum pump is working). On some HDi engines the turbocharger and EGR valve are triggered via a vacuum line, and if this has a leak the relevant part cannot work. A leak in the vacuum line to the turbocharger could well stop it working properly.
Peter.N.
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Re: Relay 2.2HDI 120

Post by Peter.N. »

As James says only if the vacuum pump wasn't working you wouldn't have much in the way of brakes but maybe the vacuum pipe to the turbo is leaking/cracked, or the turbo actuator is sticking, see if you can move it, if you can get to it.

Intermittent faults are the bane of my life, particularly when I used to repair TVs, now its the wipers on the C5.

Peter
onetruecharlatan
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Re: Relay 2.2HDI 120

Post by onetruecharlatan »

Turbo vacuum pipes are usually pretty small I.D. rubber hoses, am I correct?

Citroen Service doesn't list a "turbo vacuum hose". The parts diagram only shows DISTR. CHAMBER TURBO AIR UNION which is the large I.D. hosing from the intercooler, with this one, 0382LY, being from the intercooler outlet to turbo. Is this the part you are referring to?

I've ordered a chinese BT code reader from Amazon, using Torque Pro to see what the anti pollution light code is for. Do you think that erasing the fault might cure it? I'm really hoping so. Doing ANY work related to the turbo is going to be a f***ing nightmare :(

Steve.

EDIT:

Having found an actuator on eBay, (again, Citroen Service do not list it as a seperate item, nor the vacuum hose), I can see the small I.D. line on this photo https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FIAT-DUCATO- ... SwsXFZJERr

Is THAT what you're saying maybe split? Anyone know how I access the turbo on this hideous van - from the top, bottom, the glovebox maybe?????? Oh! Lord.

Steve.
Hell Razor5543
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Re: Relay 2.2HDI 120

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

I do NOT know if your Relay has a vacuum system to activate the turbocharger; I was merely making a suggestion as to a possible cause for the power issues. It would be worth finding out if there is a vacuum system.

Deleting an error code does not normally resolve the issue. Finding out what the code is (and whet it relates to) is far more important.