205 1.8 GLD xud7 starting trouble (fixed)

[lad-with-205d]

hey fellow lovers of french cars, i'm very new to the world of diesel cars (i ride bikes mostly but its cold out)

here is my first post i have a 1.8 205-D GLD 1994 THINK ITS XUD7..
i have been looking for information to get my car started it runs lovely when it starts but the other day i went out in the morning and it just cranked and cranked....... nothing
i did get it going in the end by pumping the primer and turning it over that got it going for the day, from then on it was fine and started on the button with no pumping of the primer, for the rest of the day,

the day after thinking it was an air leek, i pumped the primer and turned the key, and just got endless cranking

next day i got it to fire!!! i first turned the glow plugs on twice then ran round and hooked up a lead to the stop solenoid from the battery and gave it a crank it started, so i took the lead off and drove to the shops then stopped it with the key. Got my shopping and started the car no jumping of the solenoid required, it ran fine all the way home . its a little odd that once it starts it will always start???

My question
can a stop solenoid only just kind of fail ??? (i have a new solenoid on its way) but i'm thinking i ether have a failing solenoid or a poor connection from the relay or whatever powers the solenoid, OR its just a little sticky and needs a full 12v from the battery to open the first time then stays moving from then on for about 10hours

any and all input welcome but please remember i'm new so i'm sorry if this isn't very clear, but i'll answer all questions you have the best i can...

[white exec]

My guess is that one or more of your glowplugs are not operating correctly. Repeated use of the GPs is a clue. These excellent engines do need proper pre-heating when cold.
WIth a cold engine, check for at least 11v at the GP connecting 'rail' when IGN is turned on, which should continue for 30s+ after the engine starts.
Remove each GP and test on the bench. Tip should glow orange-yellow hot within 5 secs, and take about 9-10A from a 12v supply. (Do not apply power uninstalled like this for more than 15s or so.)
Check also the connections on the underside of the GP relay, and clean them up. Contacts inside too.
If renewing GPs, go fo BERU brand.
Of replacing the GP relay, make sure you get the correct one - there are many different types which look the same. Post your VIN, and we can come up withe the correct part number.
Let us know how you get on.

[RichardW]

Smoking when cranking, starting roughly in a cloud of smoke = glow plugs. No smoke when cranking and starting cleanly = air leak problem.

My guess is it needs a new set of glow plugs....

[lad-with-205d]

My guess is that one or more of your glowplugs are not operating correctly. Repeated use of the GPs is a clue. These excellent engines do need proper pre-heating when cold.
WIth a cold engine, check for at least 11v at the GP connecting 'rail' when IGN is turned on, which should continue for 30s+ after the engine starts.
Remove each GP and test on the bench. Tip should glow orange-yellow hot within 5 secs, and take about 9-10A from a 12v supply. (Do not apply power uninstalled like this for more than 15s or so.)
Check also the connections on the underside of the GP relay, and clean them up. Contacts inside too.
If renewing GPs, go fo BERU brand.
Of replacing the GP relay, make sure you get the correct one - there are many different types which look the same. Post your VIN, and we can come up withe the correct part number.
Let us know how you get on.

hi i've just been out un the cold sunshine, and found i have 12v's at all the plugs and it turns off after about 30s so i think the plugs are ok not great but ok... i would worry about removing them for fear of them snapping off with years of crud holding them in (waiting until it needs a head gasket and i have the access to remove the broken bits if they did snap) ,
i'm still thinking solenoid because if i don't jump it by running the lead from the battery i just get endless cranking like i have a lack of fuel,

thanks for replying
matt

[white exec]

Hi Matt,

Good that there is 12v at the GP rail, and the timing, but that just gives the GP relay a clean bill of health.

You do need to remove the GPs and test them. On these engines, they usually come out ok - use a suitable long socket or ring spanner. An overnight squirt of penetrating oil at them might/might not help.
When you refit/replace them, put a smear of copper grease on the threads, for next time.

You can do a test on each GP while still in the engine.
Disconnect the rail, so the GP terminals can be got at separately.
If (if) you have an suitable ammeter, apply 12v to each one, and check the current taken. Should be 9-10A apiece.
If you try to measure each one's resistance, it will not be easy, as they are only an ohm or two. If any are high resistance or open circuit, they are duff.

If the age of the GPs is unknown, and they've likely 10 years+ of work, just treat yourself to a new set.
BERU are strongly recommended for performance and a long life.

[moizeau]

Just one other thing, after leaving them with a bit of penetrating oil, before removing them start the engine and get it nice and warm. You can check 12v to the lead on the stop solenoid easily, if it's got power and you suspect it's sticking, remove it and there is a little rubber boot. Remove that, beware there's a spring inside that will try to escape. Put the solenoid back in. You will have to stop the engine using the stop lever on the pump as now there is no stop solenoid. Don't do both things at the same time, you won't know which is the cause, do the plugs first, that's where my money would be. If you've got two plugs gone, turn the key, when the light goes out turn the key off and back on a second time. Don't try and start it until you hear a click from a relay (probably under the glove box). The click will be about 10 seconds of so after the glow plug light has gone out.

[Pug_XUD_KeenAmateur]

Glow Plug Test I've used successfully many times, no need to remove them:-

Disconnect the Glowplug power rail
Set the Multimeter to ? Ohms, he selects 300
Negative to earth (eg engine block)
Positive to the glowplug
He gets a reading of approx 1.6 ?

[RichardW]

See my post above...no 1 eyeball will soon tell you if it's the plugs.

Relatively easy to change on a N/A engine, esp if it's a Lucas pump - although I did rip a lump off the head on my Sister's ZX undoing one...

[lad-with-205d]

ok thanks for this it really helps, i'll see what i can get done around my working hours.
For now ill wait for the stop solenoid then change that (its not sounding like the problem anymore but its on its way anyway so might as-well)
until then i'll start soaking my glow plugs in plus-gass and try some of the tests you all have recommended

i'll repot back soon

again can't thank you guys enough, you all seem super knowledgeable

[white exec]

The engine starts and stops ok when the engine is warmed up, so maybe not the stop solenoid.

You can do that resistance check on the individual GPs, but not all multimeters cope well with such a low resistance*. As said, if you get a much higher resistance (eg around 5 ohms or more, or even infinity/open circuit), the plug is dead.

* Check what figure your meter gives when probes are shorted together, and take that into account.
Measure the resistance of each plug between the plug terminal and the plug body itself.

[andy5]

Smoking when cranking, starting roughly in a cloud of smoke = glow plugs.

Or valve clearances.

[RichardW]

That's true...good call! New set of plugs is much cheaper, but if it doesn't work, then checking the valves is a good way to go - much harder to fix! Sounds like the OP has recently bought it, so doesn't know if this is new behaviour or has developed over time.

[white exec]

Good advice - always do the easiest and cheapest things first . . . A new set of plugs is the best way to go.

[lad-with-205d]

That's true...good call! New set of plugs is much cheaper, but if it doesn't work, then checking the valves is a good way to go - much harder to fix! Sounds like the OP has recently bought it, so doesn't know if this is new behaviour or has developed over time.

hello again,
we've had the car from new... well the wife's family have.. its kind of a family air-loom for the missis and i've been trying to keep it going for her lately with the hope of being able to restore it fully one day

the solenoid turned up today and as expected no change (like everyone said)

(service history shows no record of the glow plugs being changed)
i've asked a garage to tackle the glow plugs as even though i've done the cam belt and all the bolts came out fine... i worry about snapping them, and not having the tools to remove the broken bits
my plan is to get a quote and in the mean time spray penetrating oil on them (over a week) to hopefully help them out

matt

[moizeau]

If your capable of doing a cambelt, the glow plugs are a walk in the park. 1/4 inch socket set with long reach sockets is all you need, and a bit of dexterity to get the plug on the cambelt end (from memory). Get the engine warm first and they'll come out. I don't want to tempt fate but I've never had an XUD glow plug snap. If a garage snaps one they won't take the head off as a freebie anyway so do it yourself and save some money.