C5 BSI, Transponder, Coding Issues

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C5 BSI, Transponder, Coding Issues

Post by olliewarwick1 »

Hi All,

I'm having a bit of trouble with my father's car. He had a problem with his original BSI so we have replaced the ECU, BSI and transponder in the key on his 2001 C5 V6 petrol.

The ECU, BSI and transponder appear to all work ok, in so much that interior bits are working etc.

I've plugged it into Lexia and I'm getting the attached reports in the BSI and ECU windows which would show that the ECU is matched but doesn't appear to be communicating with the BSI correctly. It says "Awaiting response from BSI, BSI response incorrect". But it also says that the BSI is matched to the engine management ECU. I'm therefore confused and don't really know where to go from here.

Any suggestions/pointers would be great.

I'm not sure what was wrong with the original, as I didn't take a look myself.

Thanks,
Ollie

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Last edited by GiveMeABreak on 14 Nov 2019, 19:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Key code - how to get hold of it

Post by olliewarwick1 »

Hi all,

I've replaced the BSI, ECU and transponder on my father's car however, the replacement only came with one key, so I would like to add another. The problem is that the replacement BSI is from another car and therefore the key code no longer matches that of the original on the car. I have the VIN because it shows in lexia but obviously citroen are not going to give me the key code for a car that I do not 'own', even though it has now effectively been scrapped.

What are my options?

I've found a guy online who sort of shows how to get the key code using software and attaching the BSI to a computer, but I'm not sure I trust myself with that and having wiped a BSI before by just changing the battery I don't want to take the risk.

Thanks in advance.

Ollie
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Re: C5 hdi vtr 55reg suspension problem

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Hi Ollie. It's going to take a while to absorb these last three posts as there are several issues.

I do need some clarification - at the beginning of this tread he was talking about a MK II C5 and you are now talking about a MK I 3.0 C5. Can you confirm these are separate issues and separate cars, and if so it would be better to separate the threads as they will be unrelated topics.

If this is the case, let me know along with the VIN (or reg) of the original 3.0 C5 and also of the donor C5 of which you should have the VIN from as you've said. I have a very good reason for asking, but I need some time to check out my theories....
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Re: C5 BSI, Transponder, Coding Issues

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Ok, my colleague had already merged some of your posts (which explains why I was a bit confused reading them all together), so I think I have your specific issues merged on the MK I C5 and we will leave the other thread as it was concerning the MK II C5.

If you can respond to my question above on the MK1 3.0 C5 above that would get me started.
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Re: C5 BSI, Transponder, Coding Issues

Post by GiveMeABreak »

In the meantime, have you resynchronised the fobs since swapping the BSI and engine ECU?

Ensure car battery is fully charged and no in economy mode
insert key 1 into ignition, turn to ignition plus only!
Within 10 seconds press on one of the fob buttons and release
Remove the key from the ignition.

Repeat for the other spare Fob.
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Re: C5 BSI, Transponder, Coding Issues

Post by olliewarwick1 »

Hi Marc,
Thanks for your question. So just to clarify, my Dad now has two C5's. One mk2 which has a suspension issue, he initially posted about this a little while back and I've only just had chance to look at it.
He has a second C5 which is a mk1 in which, I think, the BSI failed (I didn't check it out first time round)
So you are right, they should be completely separate as they are different problems for different cars.

Just for ease, let's ignore the suspension issue in this thread now. If we could open the suspension thread again separately that would be great.

SO, mk 1. Had a BSI fault, we replaced BSI, ECU, transponder (unfortunately only one replacement key). I've tried to start the car and just turns over. When I look in lexia I see the attached screen shots.

Initially the car was not in economy mode, but it now is. The battery was fully charged through this process. I haven't resynced fob since swapping, but it did lock and unlock the doors ok using the remote so I assumed it was working.

The dash now tells me it's in economy mode and that there is "electrical fault with security system" those are not quite the exact words as I'm not with the car at the moment.

The VIN for the replacement BSI, that is the one bought on ebay to solve is VF7**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff]
The original VIN I do not have at the moment, but I will get for you.

I will be visiting the old boy again at some point over the next couple of weeks so I'm hoping to solve both the mk1 bsi issue and the mk2 suspension issue.

I appreciate your help.

Ollie
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Re: C5 BSI, Transponder, Coding Issues

Post by wheeler »

Out of curiosity what was the original fault with the car & how did you come to the conclusion the BSI was at fault?
In my experience BSI unit failures are very rare unless there is an external factor eg water ingress, wiring in accessories incorrectly or connecting jump leads the wrong way around etc.
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Re: C5 BSI, Transponder, Coding Issues

Post by olliewarwick1 »

Hi Wheeler, I'm afraid I can't give you a detailed answer on this. The car would not start and would not respond to many functions. My father took it to his local garage who diagnosed the BSI and wanted to send off for refurbishment. I didn't have a working lexia at the time so couldn't check this. I've replaced the ECU, BSI and transponders on a Pug 307 in the past with good results so we thought we would give that a try in the first instance. We do still have the original ECU, BSI and transponders, so I may yet switch them back to see. But in the meantime it would be good to know what's going on with the replacement set.
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Re: C5 BSI, Transponder, Coding Issues

Post by olliewarwick1 »

Hi Marc,
The VIN for the car itself is VF7**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff]. Just to be clear, the ECU, BSI and transponder for this VIN is now sat on the back seat. At some point in the future, I may plug all of it back in to see what if what the garage is saying is true. I don't have the immo code on this one either so reprogramming the BSI could be pain. But in the meantime, let me know if you need any more info.
Cheers,
Ollie
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Re: C5 BSI, Transponder, Coding Issues

Post by GiveMeABreak »

A couple of observations Ollie:

So the BSIs cannot be reprogrammed once coded. But if you mean the confidential code for coding the keys, then you will need this to undertake that operation. Once the key transponders are matched and coded, they can't be re-coded to another BSI, but can be coded again to the same BSI. So I would start by getting the confidential codes of both your car and the donor car. Citroen will provide the code for a fee, on proof of car ownership, ID and address. As for the donor vehicle - if you have an invoice - or something to say it has been written off maybe....

So that is the first thing I would do - with the power cut to the BSIs, Engine ECU for extended periods, it is likely the transponders in the fobs need re-coding to their original BSIs again - but you will need the respective codes for each to do it.

Here is the sequence of what happens so you have a better understanding:

The following need to happen to unlock the engine ECU:
  • The key with transponder must be identified
  • The key with transponder must be authenticated
  • The engine ECU and the BSI must be matched
This is the Key Identification Sequence
StageDesignation
1The BSI sends an identification request to the switching module under the steering wheel
2The switching module under the steering wheel transmits an electric signal to the transponder aerial
3The aerial transmits the message to the key transponder
4The key transponder answers by sending the key identification code
5The key identification code is compared with the key identification codes memorised in the BSI
6If the key identification code is memorised in the BSI. The BSI memorises the identifier of the active key. The key authentication session can begin
If the key identification code is not memorised in the BSI. The procedure is repeated every 100 ms for 2 minutes

This is the Key Authentication Sequence
StageDesignation
1The BSI sends an authentication request to the switching module under the steering wheel. The authentication request contains a random number and an encrypted password linked to the key identification code
2The switching module under the steering wheel transmits an electric signal to the transponder aerial
3The aerial transmits this message to the key transponder
4The key transponder responds by sending the result of the authentication calculation. The authentication calculation is performed using an encrypting function and from the random number and the encrypted password
5At the same time, the BSI performs a calculation using an encrypting function and from the random number and the encrypted password
6The results calculated by the key and the BSI are compared
7If the results are the same, the unlocking sequence continues
If the results are different, the BSI repeats an authentication request a maximum 2 times. The third time, the authentication request is deactivated for one minute
Note: The encrypting key is only determined in one way and is linked to the BSI code.

This is the Unlocking of the Engine ECU Sequence
StageDesignation
1When the ignition is switched on, the engine ECU sends the BSI a random number
2Using an encrypting function and from the random number and BSI code, the BSI calculates an authentication number
3At the same time, the engine ECU also calculates an authentication number, using an encrypting function and from the random number and engine ECU code
4If the key is authenticated, the BSI sends to the engine ECU the number used as a link authentication that it has calculated
5The engine ECU compares the authentication number from the BSI with the one it has calculated
6If the numbers are the same, the engine ECU is unlocked
If the numbers are different, the engine ECU remains locked
Note: The starting sequence is deactivated for one minute after 3 failed unlocking procedures.
  • After the ignition is switched off, a 10 second timer is started.
  • When the timing is ended, the engine ECU locks up.
  • The engine cannot be started.
Display of the Engine Immobiliser Status
Engine immobiliser statusTransponder LED status
ECU lockedOff
Ignition switched onLit
Recognizing the key and unlockingOff
Key not recognisedFlashing at 2,5 Hertz
No connection with the engine ECUFlashing at 2,5 Hertz
BSI and engine ECU not matchedFlashing at 2,5 Hertz
The other point (not so much of an issue at present), is of course there are different options between the two cars - the replacement car:

No ESP *
Manual Seats *
Without Obstacle Detection *
No Sat Nav *

So the above will need to be changed if you haven't already done so later after you manage to get the car started of course :wink:
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Marc
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