The Hydrogen Thread

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NewcastleFalcon
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Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles still alive?

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

NewcastleFalcon wrote:
30 Jun 2020, 22:54
Well there was a little piece on News at Ten on the BBC about Hydrogen tonight with diggers, buses, trains, ships, trucks and planes.

Regards Neil
..and now it appears on the BBC News website

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-53238512

If hydrogen is to play a part in transportation/energy storage is comforting to know that the "UK Leads the World in Hydrogen Technology"

Regards Neil

Peter.N.
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Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles still alive?

Post by Peter.N. »

I don't think in the present climate that hydrogen is economically viable, the power needed to separate it from water is considerably greater than you could ever get out of it. They build aluminium smelters next to large hydroelectric sources because of their huge energy requirement, I think the same would probably be true of a hydrogen plant, unless we produce far more energy from natural sources than we can use.

I believe they convert surplus energy to hydrogen on the Orkneys as they do produce more energy than they can use, in fact they export some to the main land - but not everywhere is like the Orkneys.

Peter

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Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles still alive?

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

The Oil and Petrol Corporations (now branded as Energy Companies) are likely to contribute, in the push towards some sort of Hydrogen use and infrastructure explosion (if you will pardon the description). Policymakers in the EU and State governments pretty much all over the world have set out their strategies to move away from a carbon-based economy to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

The unlikely bedfellows of those Oil and Gas companies will lobby and push for the least damaging (for them) option over the medium term, and that is to increase production of grey hydrogen, then increasingly blue hydrogen from the stuff they like to dig out of the ground at an alarming rate.

Their desired option is of course the status quo, and producing petrol/diesel/kerosene as they always have, and for billions of cars planes ships trains to continue to burn it in combustion engines. With a little bit of determined persuasion they could be dragged kicking and screaming to a different place.
The Annex to the EU's draft Strategy soon to be published covers the different classifications they use for Hydrogen

Green Hydrogen is from Renewable Resources
Grey Hydrogen is Hydrogen produced from Fossil Fules without Carbon Capture
Blue Hydrogen is Hydrogen produced from Fossil Fuels with Carbon Capture
Spoiler: show
screenshot
screenshot
Regards Neil

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Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles still alive?

Post by Peter.N. »

Sounds like no one is going to be able to afford to run a car.

Peter

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Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles still alive?

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Unlikely that many FCF Members will plough through this but just for the record yesterday the EU did publish the final version of their Hydrogen Strategy.

https://www.h2-view.com/story/eu-unveil ... -strategy/

Transport is almost an aside, with the objective of the first part of the strategy (2020-24) to decarbonise existing hydrogen production for current uses such as the chemical sector, and promote it for new applications. This phase relies on the installation of at least 6 Gigawatt of renewable hydrogen electrolysers in the EU by 2024 and aims at producing up to one million tonne of renewable hydrogen. In comparison to the current situation, approximately 1 Gigawatt of electrolysers are installed in the EU today.

On transport.....
"In transport, hydrogen is also a promising option where electrification is more difficult. For example in local city buses, commercial fleets or specific parts of the rail network. Heavy-duty vehicles including coaches, special purpose vehicles, and long-haul road freight could also be decarbonised by using hydrogen as a fuel. Hydrogen fuel-cell trains could be extended and hydrogen could be used as a fuel for maritime transport on inland waterways and short-sea shipping.

In the long term, hydrogen can also become an option to decarbonise the aviation and maritime sector, through the production of liquid synthetic kerosene or other synthetic fuels."
That bit about synthetic fuels seems to be contradicted by the final sentence in this paragraph, but you could perhaps see the Car Industry lobbying for "green" synthetic fuels, and continuing to burn them in their vehicles with "similar levels of air pollutant emissions as fossil fuels".
Hydrogen-derived synthetic fuels refer to a variety of gaseous and liquid fuels on the basis of hydrogen and carbon. For synthetic fuels to be considered renewable, the hydrogen part of the syngas should be renewable. Synthetic fuels include for instance synthetic kerosene in aviation, synthetic diesel for cars, and various molecules used in the production of chemicals and fertilisers. Synthetic fuels can be associated with very different levels of greenhouse gas emissions depending on the feedstock and process used. In terms of air pollution, burning synthetic fuels produces similar levels of air pollutant emissions as fossil fuels.
REgards Neil

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Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles still alive?

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Do Fuel Cells have and advantage over Li-ion Batteries in terms of recycling and waste generation.?

This lot, whose business it is of course, think so

Benefits of Fuel Cells: Refurbishing Leads to Zero-Waste

Regards Neil

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Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles still alive?

Post by ksanturion10 »

Just wanted to congrat all of you for taking part into this topic.
It looks like a very promising technology actually.
Wonder, when we will have the chance to exploit it in a more beneficial way :D

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bobins
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Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles still alive?

Post by bobins »

I think it'll be like the promise of profitable energy from fusion - it's permanently 20 years away :lol:

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Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles still alive?

Post by ksanturion10 »

Yeah, something like that :lol:

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Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles still alive?

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

James found this link on an interesting hydrogen trucks project in Switzerland with Hyundai a Supermarket and hydro electricity supported green hydrogen network.
viewtopic.php?p=659407#p659407
Hell Razor5543 wrote:
07 Oct 2020, 13:20
Well, Hyundai have just delivered some Hydrogen fuel cell lorries to Switzerland;

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/news/hyu ... d=msedgntp
Regards Neil

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Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles still alive?

Post by mickthemaverick »

On a similar note to James' link this article is interesting in passing:

https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/07/ ... -fuel.aspx

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Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles still alive?

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

"The car in front is a....
Regards Neil

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mickthemaverick
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Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles still alive?

Post by mickthemaverick »

There we go Neil, Hydrogen even has approval from above!! :-D

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Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles still alive?

Post by ksanturion10 »

So :D, the permission from above is to buy hydrogen and turn it to water and electricity... some kind of an inverted solution this must be :shock:

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Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles still alive?

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Jim posed the question over on the dump your diesel thread
CitroJim wrote:
19 Nov 2020, 08:42
Hydrogen is, I believe, being looked at for railway traction. Already there's an experimental train running on it and in the longer term it may be more economical than installing more overhead line electrification infrastructure...

I also believe diesel traction is due to be phased out in the not too distant...

Some lightly used secondary lines already have battery trains running on them - repurposed underground stock...
Its been a while since I've had a dig around on hydrogen trains, so if anyone wants to join in and contribute to our knowledge with a few links please do.

Regards Neil