Using Apple Pay at a drive through.

This is the place for posts that don't fit into any other category.

Moderator: RichardW

crapday69
Donor 2017
Posts: 273
Joined: 31 Oct 2017, 16:52
x 51

Using Apple Pay at a drive through.

Unread post by crapday69 »

After reading that you could be fined £200 plus six points for using your phone to pay for goods at a drive through and also using your mobile in general whilst your engine is running, what happens if you drive an EV, never an engine running so can I use my mobile any time I’m stopped in traffic as your engine needs to be running for you to be in charge of the car.

Your sitting outside your home on the road engine running handbrake on using your phone = £200 fine and aforementioned points but do the same in an EV no law broken. Is this fair ?

I may be wrong as I don’t know if any law has been changed in light of the popularity of EV’s.

User avatar
Paul-R
Donor 2020
Posts: 4011
Joined: 07 May 2009, 16:24
x 391

Re: Using Apple Pay at a drive through.

Unread post by Paul-R »

I suspect it will depend on whether the system is active or not. If the car uses a traditional key then whether or not it is inserted and turned and if it keyless then whether or not the start button is pressed.

User avatar
GiveMeABreak
Forum Admin Team
Posts: 20001
Joined: 15 Sep 2015, 19:38
x 1959

Re: Using Apple Pay at a drive through.

Unread post by GiveMeABreak »

I think that's a bit too literally taken TBH. Sure if you are fiddling with your phone while driving fair cop. But if the car is at a standstill not on a public road as such and you are using Apple Pay I can't see an issue and I cannot see anyone being escorted off Macdonalds drivethru for example when paying for your Big Mac and fries by phone. For a start it's private property as are most commercial retail outlets where most of these are used. I use it all the time.

Another cuckoo brained idea some jobsworth has not figured out and not considered no doubt and still living in the dark ages.

You may as well say using your credit card, having a scratch or slurping a coffee at a drive thru is an offence. :roll:

User avatar
NewcastleFalcon
Posts: 11227
Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 11:40
x 979

Re: Using Apple Pay at a drive through.

Unread post by NewcastleFalcon »

This may help. Here's the legal take from a bunch of solicitors. (UK)
https://www.motoringoffencelawyers.com/ ... phone-use/

It’s an offence to use a hand-held phone whilst driving a motor vehicle under Section 110 of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986. This offence carries a penalty of 6 points on your licence and can result in a fine of up to £1,000 (or £2,500 if you are driving a bus, coach or heavy goods vehicle).
They Identify four elements in Law which must be satisfied for an offence to be commited and go into a little detail on each one. It has to be proved

1 You were driving
2 On a Road
3 While Using
4 A Handheld Mobile Phone or Device
Each of those elements has an element of interpretation/definition. eg the on a road bit, may arguably not include the drive through bit of KFC!/McD or whatever. You dont really stand much chance of claiming you weren't driving if you are on a public highway, whether or not you are currently stuck at traffic lights or a traffic jam or whether or not your engine is running.

REgards Neil

User avatar
GiveMeABreak
Forum Admin Team
Posts: 20001
Joined: 15 Sep 2015, 19:38
x 1959

Re: Using Apple Pay at a drive through.

Unread post by GiveMeABreak »

Exactly - so drive thrus are not generally public property.

User avatar
NewcastleFalcon
Posts: 11227
Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 11:40
x 979

Re: Using Apple Pay at a drive through.

Unread post by NewcastleFalcon »

With cameras in the hands of virtually every member of the general public, It ain’t that hard to satisfy elements 1,2,3, and 4 of the required evidence....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-48213106

Regards Neil

Homer
Posts: 1504
Joined: 26 Feb 2003, 11:52
x 14

Re: Using Apple Pay at a drive through.

Unread post by Homer »

crapday69 wrote:
01 May 2019, 19:19
Your sitting outside your home on the road engine running handbrake on using your phone = £200 fine and aforementioned points but do the same in an EV no law broken. Is this fair ?

I may be wrong as I don’t know if any law has been changed in light of the popularity of EV’s.


The law doesn't mention anything about having the engine running. It says you may not use the phone while driving. And it is surprisingly brief.
41DBreach of requirements as to control of vehicle, mobile telephones etc.
A person who contravenes or fails to comply with a construction and use requirement—

as to not driving or supervising the driving of a motor vehicle while using a hand-held mobile telephone or other hand-held interactive communication device,
What constitutes driving is up to the court to decide. There are previous cases to use as a guide.
Under existing case law, a person may be regarded as driving whilst the engine is running and the vehicle is stationary. This means that an individual stopped at a traffic light could be prosecuted for a mobile phone offence. The intention of the legislation is to promote road safety.

The test for “driving” is a combination of whether an individual is in a substantial sense controlling the movement and direction of a vehicle and the general meaning of the word “drive”.

In Planton v DPP [2002] R.T.R. 9, DC, the Defendant was in a stationary vehicle with the lights on and engine running. The Court held that he had been “driving” for the purposes of the legislation, as the stationary state of a vehicle is not the sole determinative factor as to whether it is being driven. The Defendant’s vehicle was in a place that he could not provide any explanation for how it got there, other than that the car had been driven there by him.

A person may be regarded as driving a stationary vehicle, even when the engine is not running – Jones v Prothero [1952] 1 All ER 434.
The general guideline is you can only use it when you are safely parked. Even that could be a grey area if you have just pulled over to the side of the road.

I learned something new though. You can't use a mobile while supervising a learner driver either. :oops:

Guess it's back to paper maps when #2 child starts driving.

User avatar
bobins
Donor 2020
Posts: 3135
Joined: 05 Jul 2012, 18:07
x 847

Re: Using Apple Pay at a drive through.

Unread post by bobins »

So does it follow that you are not regarded as using a handheld mobile phone or device if it's sitting in a cradle on the dashboard - even if you're jabbing away at it as you drive ? Driving without due care and attention, maybe, but not "an offence to use a hand-held phone whilst driving a motor vehicle under Section 110 of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986" 'cos it's not hand held ???? :?

Gibbo2286
Donor 2020
Posts: 4493
Joined: 08 Jun 2011, 18:04
x 723

Re: Using Apple Pay at a drive through.

Unread post by Gibbo2286 »

The Planton v DPP [2002] R.T.R. 9, DC case was probably in regard to drink driving i.e. drunk in charge of a motor vehicle, The defendant couldn't explain how the vehicle had arrived where it was if he hadn't driven it.
I'm guessing, haven't looked it up.

Homer
Posts: 1504
Joined: 26 Feb 2003, 11:52
x 14

Re: Using Apple Pay at a drive through.

Unread post by Homer »

bobins wrote:
11 May 2019, 20:19
So does it follow that you are not regarded as using a handheld mobile phone or device if it's sitting in a cradle on the dashboard - even if you're jabbing away at it as you drive ?


It's no different to trying to tune into a radio station on a 1080's era MW/LW car stereo. Or from what I've heard, one of the new touch screen based centre consoles with everything including heater controls on there.

But if they want to they can throw due care and attention at you, it's just a little harder to prove.

Not that there's any coppers around anyway.

Gibbo2286
Donor 2020
Posts: 4493
Joined: 08 Jun 2011, 18:04
x 723

Re: Using Apple Pay at a drive through.

Unread post by Gibbo2286 »

Observations today, a sunny day so lots of drivers with their right arm hanging out of the window, now that's not being in full control. :)

User avatar
NewcastleFalcon
Posts: 11227
Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 11:40
x 979

Re: Using Apple Pay at a drive through.

Unread post by NewcastleFalcon »

Homer wrote:
12 May 2019, 19:26
Not that there's any coppers around anyway.
Yes that’s a fact, but there is the general public with their cameras, although whether the under resourced local plod will be able to deal with an avalanche of anonymously supplied photos from the public is another matter. Course if they see a pic of Becks on his phone I imagine he goes to the top of the pile.
NewcastleFalcon wrote:
10 May 2019, 17:15
With cameras in the hands of virtually every member of the general public, It ain’t that hard to satisfy elements 1,2,3, and 4 of the required evidence....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-48213106

Regards Neil

Homer
Posts: 1504
Joined: 26 Feb 2003, 11:52
x 14

Re: Using Apple Pay at a drive through.

Unread post by Homer »

NewcastleFalcon wrote:
12 May 2019, 19:52
Homer wrote:
12 May 2019, 19:26
Not that there's any coppers around anyway.
Yes that’s a fact, but there is the general public with their cameras,


I doubt a picture from a phone camera meets the requirements for evidence. Far too easy to tamper with digital stuff, even video can't be trusted these days. Besides the busybody taking the picture was probably driving too. [-X

User avatar
NewcastleFalcon
Posts: 11227
Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 11:40
x 979

Re: Using Apple Pay at a drive through.

Unread post by NewcastleFalcon »

A photograph taken by a member of the public was exactly what persuaded Becks and his no doubt well paid legal team to plead guilty even though he couldn't remember the incident at all, and it wasn't reported that they challenged the authenticity of the photograph. Granted they could have done had they opted to defend the charge, and pleading guilty was maybe a less damaging outcome for Beckham, than possibly being seen to get away with it.
The former England captain previously pleaded guilty to using the device while driving his Bentley in central London on 21 November last year.

A court heard he was photographed by a member of the public holding a phone as he drove in "slowly moving" traffic.
REgards Neil

crapday69
Donor 2017
Posts: 273
Joined: 31 Oct 2017, 16:52
x 51

Re: Using Apple Pay at a drive through.

Unread post by crapday69 »

The law is using a phone to call or text. You can use the phone to record voice memos (as Jimmy Carr done and got away with it) or to take pictures or video as a guy done and got away with it. He was recording an accident while driving past it.