Citroen C5 -05 DMF to "SMF"?

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Pappi
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Citroen C5 -05 DMF to "SMF"?

Post by Pappi »

So, here we go.

I have an Citroen C5, year 2005, 2.0 HDI 136.

The clutch + dmf was changed 4 years ago. At 100000 miles. The car has now 135k miles on it and the clutch and or dmf is failing.

In high gears (4th,5th & 6th) the clutch is slipping when I try to accelerate. It over-revs and does not accelerate, for a second, then the revs go down and the car starts to accelerate.

This car has had repairs for over 8000 pounds the last 4 years. (hydraulics, shocks, clutch, breaks, all wheel bearings) So please bear with me.

My question to ya'll guys is, can I install the Bölk BOL-G061221 on my vehicle? It is a single mass flywheel and clutch-kit. It's a whole lot cheaper than a dual-mass and I don't mind if the ride gets ruffer or anything. It just needs to fit and I'm happy.

When I enter my registration number on mister-auto It sais this pack will fit my car. It's "only" 180 euro. The DMF and clutch is about 500 euros.

Best Regards
Pappi

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myglaren
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Re: Citroen C5 -05 DMF to "SMF"?

Post by myglaren »

Welcome to the FCF Pekka:)
You are way up in the frozen north I see. Never been up there.

Is your C5 subject to very hard usage- towing heavy trailers or suchlike? 100,000K seems too soon for a second DMF.
Or was that 100,000 Swedish miles?

I have no direct experience but others have been severely disappointed with Bölk parts, they seem to have a very short useful life. €180 seems ridiculously cheap too.

The ride with a solid flywheel may not be much different but the perceived downside with it seems to be more stress on engine and gearbox components leading to early failure so the savings could well be wiped out by more repairs being necessary.

Others with more direct experience may have other opinions though. Hopefully leading to a satisfactory solution for you.

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GiveMeABreak
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Re: Citroen C5 -05 DMF to "SMF"?

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Absolutely agree ^ the DMF is there for a reason to provide damping between the engine and the transmission system for modern engines, especially diesels that provide higher torque at lower output which causes torsional stress on these components. A SMF conversion simply can't provide the same level of damping protection, and will likely increase vibration. Although you may be tempted, I would resist it in my personal opinion.

DMFs can last anything from 20k miles upwards to 80k+ but like anything depnds on your driving style. If you floor it or tow, you will obviously decrease its life significantly.

It may be just the clutch that is slipping - but they should be able to inspect the DMF at the same time - however the DMF may not last as long as the new clutch so that is why they are generally changed at the same time to save on labour.

Also, in my case after having a new clutch and DMF replaced, I had slipping at 15k miles after - but on inspection, it was the crank oil seal that went, causing the new clutch friction plate to become contaminated with oil which caused the slipping.

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Re: Citroen C5 -05 DMF to "SMF"?

Post by Pappi »

Thanks for the reply guys.

I'm might buy a new dmf then, rather than converting to a smf. I've read a couple of times about some ppl changing to smf and they state it was a success. That's why I was considering it.

I have never before in my life made a clutch or flywheel go bad, so I don't think I have a bad driving style. No heavy towing going on either.

The new dmf and clutch that was changed 4 years ago only lasted 35000 miles. It's a shame.

I have no wierd sounds or vibrations, it's only the slipping in high gears that bothers me. No burning smell from clutch.

Is there any easy way for me to check if oil/fluid on the flywheel? Or to know if the dmf is bad or "only" the clutch?

To change clutch and dmf will be about 50% of the value of the car here in Sweden. It really sucks.

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white exec
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Re: Citroen C5 -05 DMF to "SMF"?

Post by white exec »

Know how you feel. I had never worn out a clutch on a car in 44 years of driving, and then came a DMF on our Toyota D4D. The original failed at 60k km, then another 20k km later, both genuine Toyota. Flywheel backlash wore then destroyed both clutches.

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GiveMeABreak
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Re: Citroen C5 -05 DMF to "SMF"?

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Pappi wrote:
11 Apr 2019, 18:02
I have no wierd sounds or vibrations, it's only the slipping in high gears that bothers me. No burning smell from clutch.

Is there any easy way for me to check if oil/fluid on the flywheel? Or to know if the dmf is bad or "only" the clutch?

To change clutch and dmf will be about 50% of the value of the car here in Sweden. It really sucks.
When the mechanic changes the clutch, they should inspect the area and certainly the clutch plate. if there is oil contamination on the friction plate or surrounding area of the casing, they should spot it.

Yes the can be expensive, but since I had mine done, I really do try to make easy starts - (no traffic light burn ups [-X ) :-D and smooth and quick gear changes. Make sure you never leave your foot on the clutch.

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Re: Citroen C5 -05 DMF to "SMF"?

Post by Pappi »

GiveMeABreak wrote:
11 Apr 2019, 18:18
Pappi wrote:
11 Apr 2019, 18:02
I have no wierd sounds or vibrations, it's only the slipping in high gears that bothers me. No burning smell from clutch.

Is there any easy way for me to check if oil/fluid on the flywheel? Or to know if the dmf is bad or "only" the clutch?

To change clutch and dmf will be about 50% of the value of the car here in Sweden. It really sucks.
When the mechanic changes the clutch, they should inspect the area and certainly the clutch plate. if there is oil contamination on the friction plate or surrounding area of the casing, they should spot it.

Yes the can be expensive, but since I had mine done, I really do try to make easy starts - (no traffic light burn ups [-X ) :-D and smooth and quick gear changes. Make sure you never leave your foot on the clutch.


I never leave my foot on the clutch, and really can't understand how you would do that without squeezing your balls between the legs during the whole ride.

Neither do I race my diesel-estate on redlights.

There must be some clutch or dmf issues when so many people experience the same malfunction, without having to change clutch/dmf every other year on previous cars.

The thing is that I will order the parts myself and then take the car to my mechanic. Therefore I would need to know, so I don't buy a 500 euro dmf and it's only the clutch that's bad.

The other option I have is driving this thing until it blows and then buy something else.

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GiveMeABreak
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Re: Citroen C5 -05 DMF to "SMF"?

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Pappi wrote:
11 Apr 2019, 18:25
I never leave my foot on the clutch, and really can't understand how you would do that without squeezing your balls between the legs during the whole ride.
:rofl2:

You'd be surprised I'm sure!

I only mentioned the possibility of the oil crankshaft seal as I couldn't believe my clutch had worn that quickly - and that's when they found it.

A bit here on it from Valeo:

https://cvwmagazine.co.uk/technical/wha ... haft-seal/

So see if you can see anything with a visual inspection - though I suspect this will be difficult without the subframe coming off which it has to do to change these - hence the labour involved at a garage and why they usually get both done. But really your choice - if the clutch looks good, plenty of friction material and no contamination, then the DMF.

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Re: Citroen C5 -05 DMF to "SMF"?

Post by Bick »

Go and talk to a good mechanic and get some experienced advice.

Citroen fitted DMF to some of their models then went back to SMF on the same models with the same engine and gearboxes without any issues. Some other manufacturers did the same, the DMF is one of those ideas that will come and go.

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Re: Citroen C5 -05 DMF to "SMF"?

Post by GiveMeABreak »

The OP has a 2005 C5 2.0 138 and these were only ever fitted with Dual Mass Flywheels.

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Re: Citroen C5 -05 DMF to "SMF"?

Post by Bick »

GiveMeABreak wrote:
13 Apr 2019, 09:58
The OP has a 2005 C5 2.0 138 and these were only ever fitted with Dual Mass Flywheels.



Yes i know :shock:

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Re: Citroen C5 -05 DMF to "SMF"?

Post by Pappi »

I've tried to listen to the clutch/flywheel at idle and a friend pressed the clutch down and up slowly, repeatedly.

No weird sounds or anything, it's really silent through the whole engagement and release.

Shouldn't I hear some kind of rattle or whining if the flywheel is bad?

In fifth gear on the motorway, I pressed the gaspedal to the floor. Revs shot up to 4000 for one second, then came down quickly and the car started to pic up speed.

Should I just buy the clutch set, and pray to the gods that the flywheel is good?

I know many of you think I should just take it to a shop and let them check it. But I know the answer from them already, they will suggest changing everything and then some.

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GiveMeABreak
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Re: Citroen C5 -05 DMF to "SMF"?

Post by GiveMeABreak »

That is one sign - the DMF does vibrate at standstill to some degree and you can usually feel this through the clutch pedal. When the DMF is really bad, the vibration can be quite noticeable and generally worse if it gets to the stage where it breaks up (where it can damage the crank). So in this case, I would suspect either the clutch itself or possible oil contamination on the clutch friction plate. In either case, you'll probably need the clutch doing, so they should be able to confirm oil contamination - or not - at the time.

The advice remains though about whether to change the DMF at the same time. This is something we cannot assess here on a Forum. If you are confident the flywheel is ok, then just change the clutch - but if the DMF goes before your next clutch it will be the cost of labour again to do the job. It's your choice and your wallet. If you want to take the chance - fine, it will be interesting to see if it does outlast the DMF - so let us know! :wink:

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white exec
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Re: Citroen C5 -05 DMF to "SMF"?

Post by white exec »

It might be possible to make some kind of judgement about the existing DMF by manually rotating one wheel (off the ground), in gear, and looking/listening to see whether any rotational backlash can be detected at the flywheel.

Not easy to judge, because DMFs can have up to 45° of angular movement between their two halves. However, when new/in good condition, this movement is stiffly sprung, and not sloppy. Only when the DMF starts to deteriorate the long springs begin to compress - or even break up - and the movement acquires good old fashioned (and massive) backlash. At this point, steep hill-starts and clutch control can become difficult, and the backlash can progressively 'hammer' the (often unsprung) clutch friction plate, firstly wearing it, then destroying it.

As Marc says, noise and vibration usually accompany DMF break-up.

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Re: Citroen C5 -05 DMF to "SMF"?

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

Personally (but this is NOT official Forum advise) I would go for the full, correct replacements. When I had the clutch done on my previous C5 I replaced the DMF with a new one, as I felt that, even though it might be currently in good order, what would it be like in the next 25,000 miles or so? It could be a false economy to re-use a worn part (and it WILL be worn, even if it looks good) when all of the other 'consumable' parts are being replaced.