205 terrible vibration after clutch change

This is the Forum for all your Peugeot Technical Questions, Problems or Advice.

Moderator: RichardW

Post Reply
xsaras4ever
(Donor 2016)
Posts: 391
Joined: 07 Aug 2013, 13:43
Location: Bretagne,France
My Cars: Peugeot 205 TD
Citroen Jumper 2.5D
Peugeot 406 Estate 2.0 Hdi
Citroen Saxo Ph2 1.1
Audi A3 1.9D
Pembleton 3 Wheeler
1959 Kelsey GT
1957 Fordson Power Major Tractor
1964 Nuffield 4/60 Tractor
1967 Nuffield 10/60 Tractor
1963 Allis Chalmers ED40 Tractor
1984 JCB 3CX
x 39

205 terrible vibration after clutch change

Post by xsaras4ever »

Hello to all.

Here is the sequence of events.

We decided to do a clutch change on our ultra reliable 205 - 1.7d, as the pedal was terribly high and we reckoned not much life left in the clutch.

We bought a cheap clutch kit - when it arrived it was marked "made in China"

We started the work and for the 1st time ever tried to cheat by not removing the long driveshaft in the hope that we could line up the gearbox and the driveshaft at the same time - this did not work as the gearbox just would not come away from the engine. The weight of the gearbox "hung" on the driveshaft for a short while.

We removed the driveshaft and separated the gearbox from the engine.

2nd mistake - we left the engine hanging on the top engine mounting (camshaft side) overnight.

We proceeded as normal and the box went back in nicely.
We noticed the bottom engine mounting was shot so we replaced it with one we found in our stock - probably bought for a Xsara.
Put it all back together, started it up and it vibrated like hell. We thought the dashboard would fall out.

It was ok when you revved it.
We had to drive it about 40km - but no more after that.
We bought a better quality clutch and have just fitted that. Still vibrates - not as bad , but not normal.

Wish we hadn't cheated with the driveshaft, but that might be a red herring.

Maybe the lower engine mounting is too hard ?

Any ideas ???
Jumper 2.5d
406 Phase 2 Estate, Hdi
Fiat 500 (2009)
1997 Audi A3 tdi
Peugeot 205 td
Fordson Major Tractor
Nuffield 460 tractor
JCB 3cx
User avatar
white exec
Moderating Team
Posts: 7445
Joined: 21 Dec 2015, 12:46
Location: Sayalonga, Malaga, Spain
My Cars: 1996 XM 2.5TD Exclusive hatch RHD
1992 BX19D Millesime hatch LHD
previously 1989 BX19RD, 1998 ZX 1.9D auto, 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto
and lots of Rovers before that: 1935 Ten, 1947 Sixteen, 1960 P5 3-litre, 1966 P6 2000, 1972 P6 2000TC, and 1975 P6B 3500S
x 1752

Re: 205 terrible vibration after clutch change

Post by white exec »

Is there any vibration, at any engine speed, with the car stationary? That would tell you whether the (fitting of the) clutch/flywheel was the issue.

You could also securely jack up the front of the car, and slowly run up the front wheels in gear (1st gear at idle will do) to see whether these is any wobble or run-out on either drive shaft. :!: Don't put youself underneath when doing this.
Chris
xsaras4ever
(Donor 2016)
Posts: 391
Joined: 07 Aug 2013, 13:43
Location: Bretagne,France
My Cars: Peugeot 205 TD
Citroen Jumper 2.5D
Peugeot 406 Estate 2.0 Hdi
Citroen Saxo Ph2 1.1
Audi A3 1.9D
Pembleton 3 Wheeler
1959 Kelsey GT
1957 Fordson Power Major Tractor
1964 Nuffield 4/60 Tractor
1967 Nuffield 10/60 Tractor
1963 Allis Chalmers ED40 Tractor
1984 JCB 3CX
x 39

Re: 205 terrible vibration after clutch change

Post by xsaras4ever »

The vibration disappears when you rev a little. When the car is stationary, it vibrates at idle and a little bit above that, then you can get rid of it as you climb the revs.

We will put it on the lift and check the driveshafts, but as it idles when stationary its unlikely to be this. However we will pop out the bolt on the bttom engine mounting at the same time to try to eliminate that.
Jumper 2.5d
406 Phase 2 Estate, Hdi
Fiat 500 (2009)
1997 Audi A3 tdi
Peugeot 205 td
Fordson Major Tractor
Nuffield 460 tractor
JCB 3cx
User avatar
white exec
Moderating Team
Posts: 7445
Joined: 21 Dec 2015, 12:46
Location: Sayalonga, Malaga, Spain
My Cars: 1996 XM 2.5TD Exclusive hatch RHD
1992 BX19D Millesime hatch LHD
previously 1989 BX19RD, 1998 ZX 1.9D auto, 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto
and lots of Rovers before that: 1935 Ten, 1947 Sixteen, 1960 P5 3-litre, 1966 P6 2000, 1972 P6 2000TC, and 1975 P6B 3500S
x 1752

Re: 205 terrible vibration after clutch change

Post by white exec »

With the car stationary, the drive shafts are not turning, so will not be the cause of the problem.
If there is engine vibration when stationary, it suggests either
- the clutch is either out of balance (unlikely if it jas done this with two of them)
- the clutch has been incorrectly fitted (eg out-of-flat, or parts omitted/wrongly located)
- ? friction plate wrong way round, or not aligned, or damaged
- the engine-clutch-gearbox is mis-aligned.

As you say, another cause could be an engine/gearbox mount issue - eg power unit or exhaust touching bodywork.
Chris
Online
User avatar
myglaren
Forum Admin Team
Posts: 25361
Joined: 02 Mar 2008, 13:30
Location: Washington
My Cars: Mazda 6
Ooops.
Previously:
2009 Honda Civic :(
C5, C5, Xantia, BX, GS, Visa.
R4, R11TXE, R14, R30TX
x 4888

Re: 205 terrible vibration after clutch change

Post by myglaren »

Bent input shaft? :(
User avatar
white exec
Moderating Team
Posts: 7445
Joined: 21 Dec 2015, 12:46
Location: Sayalonga, Malaga, Spain
My Cars: 1996 XM 2.5TD Exclusive hatch RHD
1992 BX19D Millesime hatch LHD
previously 1989 BX19RD, 1998 ZX 1.9D auto, 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto
and lots of Rovers before that: 1935 Ten, 1947 Sixteen, 1960 P5 3-litre, 1966 P6 2000, 1972 P6 2000TC, and 1975 P6B 3500S
x 1752

Re: 205 terrible vibration after clutch change

Post by white exec »

Another possibility.
Chris
sparksie
(Donor 2016)
Posts: 595
Joined: 04 Jan 2014, 22:35
Location: R.O.I.
My Cars:
x 33

Re: 205 terrible vibration after clutch change

Post by sparksie »

Yes, gearbox input shaft is a candidate, but the engine mount is also a strong possibility.
If it is not the correct one for the car/engine then it may alter the structures resonant frequency.
Designers carefully choose these components so as to put resonant frequencies and harmonics outside the normal vibration frequency of their engines. There's usually one significant resonance below normal tickover, which is why the car shakes so much at startup and shutdown, as the engine passes through the resonant rpms. If you fitted a different engine mount, you may have raised this resonant point so it coincides with tickover speed. While you have it on the ramp, refit the old mount and see if the problem disappears, before doing any major dismantling
Sparksie

2000 Xantia 1.9TurboD
xsaras4ever
(Donor 2016)
Posts: 391
Joined: 07 Aug 2013, 13:43
Location: Bretagne,France
My Cars: Peugeot 205 TD
Citroen Jumper 2.5D
Peugeot 406 Estate 2.0 Hdi
Citroen Saxo Ph2 1.1
Audi A3 1.9D
Pembleton 3 Wheeler
1959 Kelsey GT
1957 Fordson Power Major Tractor
1964 Nuffield 4/60 Tractor
1967 Nuffield 10/60 Tractor
1963 Allis Chalmers ED40 Tractor
1984 JCB 3CX
x 39

Re: 205 terrible vibration after clutch change

Post by xsaras4ever »

Hello again to all and thank you for the help.

THIS FORUM IS GREAT :-D :-D :-D

Sometimes you are so upset and entangled in a problem that you forget to think logically. The forum is like a steadying hand.

Having done quite a few clutches on PSA cars we have been pleasantly surprised how tough are the input shafts.

Is the following logic ok to test the input shaft ??

With the engine running and the car stationary and the gearbox in neutral , the engine will be turning the input shaft of the gearbox.
Same situation , with the clutch pedal pressed, the input shaft will still turn with centrifugal force.
Same situation, clutch pressed and gearbox in 1st gear, input shaft should slow down and if vibration is still there then it is not the gearbox.

This will then point to the clutch itself or the new bottom engine mounting.

Thanks sparksie for a great posting - that will be our first port of call.

We will do some tests today and report back.

Once again , a big thank you to all.
Jumper 2.5d
406 Phase 2 Estate, Hdi
Fiat 500 (2009)
1997 Audi A3 tdi
Peugeot 205 td
Fordson Major Tractor
Nuffield 460 tractor
JCB 3cx
User avatar
white exec
Moderating Team
Posts: 7445
Joined: 21 Dec 2015, 12:46
Location: Sayalonga, Malaga, Spain
My Cars: 1996 XM 2.5TD Exclusive hatch RHD
1992 BX19D Millesime hatch LHD
previously 1989 BX19RD, 1998 ZX 1.9D auto, 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto
and lots of Rovers before that: 1935 Ten, 1947 Sixteen, 1960 P5 3-litre, 1966 P6 2000, 1972 P6 2000TC, and 1975 P6B 3500S
x 1752

Re: 205 terrible vibration after clutch change

Post by white exec »

That sounds a reasonable test - input shaft (and the clutch friction plate) turning, and not turning.
Could well show up something.
Chris
xsaras4ever
(Donor 2016)
Posts: 391
Joined: 07 Aug 2013, 13:43
Location: Bretagne,France
My Cars: Peugeot 205 TD
Citroen Jumper 2.5D
Peugeot 406 Estate 2.0 Hdi
Citroen Saxo Ph2 1.1
Audi A3 1.9D
Pembleton 3 Wheeler
1959 Kelsey GT
1957 Fordson Power Major Tractor
1964 Nuffield 4/60 Tractor
1967 Nuffield 10/60 Tractor
1963 Allis Chalmers ED40 Tractor
1984 JCB 3CX
x 39

Re: 205 terrible vibration after clutch change

Post by xsaras4ever »

Hello again.
Just did a test with all combinations of clutch pedal and gears - no change to vibration.
Jumper 2.5d
406 Phase 2 Estate, Hdi
Fiat 500 (2009)
1997 Audi A3 tdi
Peugeot 205 td
Fordson Major Tractor
Nuffield 460 tractor
JCB 3cx
User avatar
white exec
Moderating Team
Posts: 7445
Joined: 21 Dec 2015, 12:46
Location: Sayalonga, Malaga, Spain
My Cars: 1996 XM 2.5TD Exclusive hatch RHD
1992 BX19D Millesime hatch LHD
previously 1989 BX19RD, 1998 ZX 1.9D auto, 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto
and lots of Rovers before that: 1935 Ten, 1947 Sixteen, 1960 P5 3-litre, 1966 P6 2000, 1972 P6 2000TC, and 1975 P6B 3500S
x 1752

Re: 205 terrible vibration after clutch change

Post by white exec »

Likely then it's the clutch assembly (clutch cover/pressure plate) out of balance/incorrectly fitted ----- if it is the clutch ----- as you have eliminated the input shaft and gearbox, and the driveshafts (by testing with the car stationary).
Either that, or a residual engine mount issue that hasn't been identified.

I take it the engine isn't misfiring at the vibrational speed?
And there is no end-float on the crankshaft (try moving the crankshaft pulley longitudinally)?
Chris
xsaras4ever
(Donor 2016)
Posts: 391
Joined: 07 Aug 2013, 13:43
Location: Bretagne,France
My Cars: Peugeot 205 TD
Citroen Jumper 2.5D
Peugeot 406 Estate 2.0 Hdi
Citroen Saxo Ph2 1.1
Audi A3 1.9D
Pembleton 3 Wheeler
1959 Kelsey GT
1957 Fordson Power Major Tractor
1964 Nuffield 4/60 Tractor
1967 Nuffield 10/60 Tractor
1963 Allis Chalmers ED40 Tractor
1984 JCB 3CX
x 39

Re: 205 terrible vibration after clutch change

Post by xsaras4ever »

Evening to all. We have just removed the bottom engine mount completely , then started up and the vibration is completely gone. Feel like a right idiot - especially as we have done the clutch change twice.
Hopefully someone else will learn from this topic before they make the mistakes we did.

A huge sense of relief and a big thank you to all =D> =D>
Jumper 2.5d
406 Phase 2 Estate, Hdi
Fiat 500 (2009)
1997 Audi A3 tdi
Peugeot 205 td
Fordson Major Tractor
Nuffield 460 tractor
JCB 3cx
User avatar
white exec
Moderating Team
Posts: 7445
Joined: 21 Dec 2015, 12:46
Location: Sayalonga, Malaga, Spain
My Cars: 1996 XM 2.5TD Exclusive hatch RHD
1992 BX19D Millesime hatch LHD
previously 1989 BX19RD, 1998 ZX 1.9D auto, 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto
and lots of Rovers before that: 1935 Ten, 1947 Sixteen, 1960 P5 3-litre, 1966 P6 2000, 1972 P6 2000TC, and 1975 P6B 3500S
x 1752

Re: 205 terrible vibration after clutch change

Post by white exec »

Result! Presumably worth replacing that lower engine mount with a genuine original one.
Some things are meant to waggle.
Chris
sparksie
(Donor 2016)
Posts: 595
Joined: 04 Jan 2014, 22:35
Location: R.O.I.
My Cars:
x 33

Re: 205 terrible vibration after clutch change

Post by sparksie »

Yes, the bottom mount does the job of the old steady bar on the Mini and other Issigonis, A series equipped cars. It stops the engine from trying to flip over under acceleration/deceleration, by passing the force into a strong part of the frame.
You must have it, but it needs to be the correct density, or it will misbehave in one of several ways.
Resonance is a peculiar thing and can do strange things that don't seem possible. Find the resonant frequency of a length of 12" steel girder and you'll be amazed at how flexible it actually is!
Glad you found it and thanks for keeping us informed
Sparksie

2000 Xantia 1.9TurboD
User avatar
white exec
Moderating Team
Posts: 7445
Joined: 21 Dec 2015, 12:46
Location: Sayalonga, Malaga, Spain
My Cars: 1996 XM 2.5TD Exclusive hatch RHD
1992 BX19D Millesime hatch LHD
previously 1989 BX19RD, 1998 ZX 1.9D auto, 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto
and lots of Rovers before that: 1935 Ten, 1947 Sixteen, 1960 P5 3-litre, 1966 P6 2000, 1972 P6 2000TC, and 1975 P6B 3500S
x 1752

Re: 205 terrible vibration after clutch change

Post by white exec »

Some engine 'steady' (anti-rotational) mounts allow a small amount of relatively free movement in a paticular direction, before the rubber really comes into play. This allows the engine to move/rock through a small amount without transmitting vibrations to the bodywork - typical of idling/low rev conditions. Important in these cases to use the correct bush/mount, which may have strategically placed air-voids or thin rubber.
Chris
Post Reply