Keyless Entry / Relay Theft

This is the place for posts that don't fit into any other category.

Moderator: RichardW

User avatar
GiveMeABreak
Forum Admin Team
Posts: 21286
Joined: 15 Sep 2015, 19:38
x 2121

Keyless Entry / Relay Theft

Post by GiveMeABreak »

As I've said before, I'm glad my X7 still uses a Plip and or Key and does not have keyless entry given the staggering increases of car theft caused by this flawed technology.

This was covered by ITV news last night.

Basically these keyless systems use the Fob to constantly emit a signal so that whenever you walk within a certain range of the car, the signal is picked up by the car's receiver and the doors are opened, in you get and can drive away.

What the thieves do is purchase 'extender' devices easily available from the web. Thieves take advantage of the fact that most people leave their car fobs hanging up in the porch or on a table near the door. One thief uses a piece of the kit to pick up the signal emitted by the fob in the house and then extends the signal to the other 'crim' who is waiting with his bit of kit by the car that picks up the relayed signal the fob signal, making the car receiver think the fob is nearer the vehicle than it actually is - and bingo the doors open and they can drive away!

Such a flawed idea and irresponsibly ill-thought out in the first place.

So I can see a rebirth and surge in 'KrookLock' manual steering wheel devices happening and there are already a lot of other brands of similar products on the market.

I think only Mercedes have redesigned their newer systems so that after the fob is motionless for a period of time it stops sending the signal. Not infallible if you have a draughty porch! - but an improvement.

I must admit a bit of a smug grin as I saw them just driving away with the Volvos and Audis in seconds! Quite an eye opener and an example of technology gone wrong.

Here's the article from the programme:

https://www.itv.com/news/2018-11-08/car ... u-tonight/

Hell Razor5543
NOT Alistair or Simon
Posts: 10747
Joined: 01 Apr 2012, 09:47
x 1066

Re: Keyless Entry / Relay Theft

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

I remember JC from Top Gear highlighting an issue with these devices, in that, when you got close to your car it would automatically unlock. His question was along the lines of "How can you check it is locked, as when you get close with the fob it unlocks?". The point he was trying to make, I think, is that, if you were alone, you could not really leave the keyfob unguarded while you checked you had locked the car!

User avatar
GiveMeABreak
Forum Admin Team
Posts: 21286
Joined: 15 Sep 2015, 19:38
x 2121

Re: Keyless Entry / Relay Theft

Post by GiveMeABreak »

The car doors re-lock as soon as the fob is out of range. That's the point in that you have to trust it is happening - or if you are really paranoid, throw your fob 20 yards, then go back and and check the door is locked to satisfy your OCD, then spend the next hour looking for your fob.

Hell Razor5543
NOT Alistair or Simon
Posts: 10747
Joined: 01 Apr 2012, 09:47
x 1066

Re: Keyless Entry / Relay Theft

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

If I ever get a vehicle with such a keyless device I will make up a simple copper box, on a mains lead (with only an earth wire connected), and put my 'keys' in that. Let them try to nick the car then!

Homer
Posts: 1504
Joined: 26 Feb 2003, 11:52
x 14

Re: Keyless Entry / Relay Theft

Post by Homer »

GiveMeABreak wrote:
09 Nov 2018, 14:45
The car doors re-lock as soon as the fob is out of range.


Every one I have used gave you the option to lock manually from the fob as well, and as long as you do it within a certain time you can test the doors are locked. This does of course defeat the object of having the system.

Some would then only unlock with the fob.

You really shouldn't be keeping keys within range of the front door anyway as there is a bigger danger of having them fished out through the letter box.

Overall it's just a matter of education although I am sure the security could be beefed up, for instance with all round parking cameras they could add face detection and do away with the fob altogether.

User avatar
Stickyfinger
Donor 2016
Posts: 10005
Joined: 28 Mar 2013, 22:05
x 734

Re: Keyless Entry / Relay Theft

Post by Stickyfinger »

If they want it theses days they just smash in and demand the keys under the threat of violence or not kidnapping your wife.

User avatar
GiveMeABreak
Forum Admin Team
Posts: 21286
Joined: 15 Sep 2015, 19:38
x 2121

Re: Keyless Entry / Relay Theft

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Homer wrote:
09 Nov 2018, 16:55
I am sure the security could be beefed up, for instance with all round parking cameras they could add face detection and do away with the fob altogether.
So then we would see hooligans rushing up and taking snapshots with their smartphones of car owners' faces on the high streets to get access to the car!

What next? Biometrics? Having your finger tips scalpel'd off so they have your fingerprints, Retina scan at the risk of loosing your eyeballs?

No, it's completely stupid tech IMO. We have not advanced enough to have a foolproof system. Until we have the ability to send 4000 volts through the seats and fry any unauthorised drivers, I think we're better sticking to keys, using mechanical protection devices and banning the sale of this sort of tech that has only one purpose. :-D

Similarly, I bet they don't get many volunteers to carry the 'Football' with the nuke codes and having that shackled to your arm.

Hell Razor5543
NOT Alistair or Simon
Posts: 10747
Joined: 01 Apr 2012, 09:47
x 1066

Re: Keyless Entry / Relay Theft

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

GiveMeABreak wrote:
09 Nov 2018, 17:57
Homer wrote:
09 Nov 2018, 16:55
I am sure the security could be beefed up, for instance with all round parking cameras they could add face detection and do away with the fob altogether.
So then we would see hooligans rushing up and taking snapshots with their smartphones of car owners' faces on the high streets to get access to the car!

What next? Biometrics? Having your finger tips scalpel'd off so they have your fingerprints, Retina scan at the risk of loosing your eyeballs?

No, it's completely stupid tech IMO. We have not advanced enough to have a foolproof system. Until we have the ability to send 4000 volts through the seats and fry any unauthorised drivers, I think we're better sticking to keys, using mechanical protection devices and banning the sale of this sort of tech that has only one purpose. :-D

Similarly, I bet they don't get many volunteers to carry the 'Football' with the nuke codes and having that shackled to your arm.

You mean something like this?


User avatar
GiveMeABreak
Forum Admin Team
Posts: 21286
Joined: 15 Sep 2015, 19:38
x 2121

Re: Keyless Entry / Relay Theft

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Exactly - I watched that last week - Robocop revival.

Homer
Posts: 1504
Joined: 26 Feb 2003, 11:52
x 14

Re: Keyless Entry / Relay Theft

Post by Homer »

GiveMeABreak wrote:
09 Nov 2018, 17:57
Homer wrote:
09 Nov 2018, 16:55
I am sure the security could be beefed up, for instance with all round parking cameras they could add face detection and do away with the fob altogether.
So then we would see hooligans rushing up and taking snapshots with their smartphones of car owners' faces on the high streets to get access to the car!


Face detection has moved on since the days when you could fool it with a simple picture.

You would have multiple cameras comparing images from multiple angles, it would need a complex 3D mockup to fool it.

And it's not like the old Mk1 key is that safe, all they need to do is walk up behind you and twist your arm.

User avatar
GiveMeABreak
Forum Admin Team
Posts: 21286
Joined: 15 Sep 2015, 19:38
x 2121

Re: Keyless Entry / Relay Theft

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Indeed! But a long way to go before any of that tech makes it's way to the car - the banks can't even get it right yet. I think anything that has any sort of remote advanced electronics can ultimately be circumvented.

In the immortal words of Scotty:
The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain

User avatar
van ordinaire
Donor 2017
Posts: 2585
Joined: 23 Jun 2015, 14:45
x 240

Re: Keyless Entry / Relay Theft

Post by van ordinaire »

"Keyless car theft" is big business among the criminal fraternity now - & RangeRovers are the favourite target.

Visible, mechanical anti-theft devices ARE recommended by crime prevention officers, can only be a matter of time before insurance companies insist on them.

That sort of high voltage/flamethrower protection is real in S. Africa, where your tracker subscription also get your car recovered by an armed response unit - unless since I was there last they've discovered/embraced human rights/health & safety!

User avatar
Zelandeth
Donor 2016
Posts: 3651
Joined: 17 Nov 2014, 00:36
x 358

Re: Keyless Entry / Relay Theft

Post by Zelandeth »

We've a VAG company car in the household which changes every four months whether we like it or not. Being company cars we also have no say in what gizmos are fitted, and I can't remember the last one without keyless entry.

Given the fundamental levels on which I find myself incompatible with these cars I avoid them whenever possible.

I've lost count how many times I've gone outside to my own cars and found whatever car we have on the drive at the moment unlocked, or in the case of two Audi's, randomly finding the boot had opened itself.

The keys are always left in the same spot, a good 50' or so from the driveway and nowhere near an exterior wall or anything!

Deliberately left visible to anyone who had gained entry to the house though... let's face it the car is the thing they're most likely to go for and I'd rather they just grab the key and run rather than winding up battering down a bedroom door and knifing someone to get the keys.

Granted, to get that far they've got to get through two current spec exterior doors and circumvent the fluffy canine security system downstairs who is quite audible...if somewhat prone to false triggering by the hedgehog that regularly walks past the back door.

User avatar
Fake Concern
Posts: 1040
Joined: 27 Dec 2012, 11:41
x 48

Re: Keyless Entry / Relay Theft

Post by Fake Concern »

The answer to a question no one asked in my opinion.
A friend of mine stopped his Range Rover to chat with friends, put his keys & sunglasses on the roof and then a few minutes later drove off. Five miles later he stopped to get a newspaper and then couldn't start the car as the "key" was in the road five miles back. After a hot uncomfortable walk to find a flat, broken key and nearly £500 later it all worked again. He sold the RR soon after!

User avatar
Zelandeth
Donor 2016
Posts: 3651
Joined: 17 Nov 2014, 00:36
x 358

Re: Keyless Entry / Relay Theft

Post by Zelandeth »

The only keyless entry I've personally used was on the Pathfinder rental we had over in the US. That only unlocked the car when the key was literally within a foot or two of the car and when you touched a specific panel on the driver's door handle.

I tried many ways to fool it, and didn't manage to. You couldn't drive off without it either as it immediately started throwing a massive hissy fit almost before the key was out the driver's door.

I actually found it was quite handy, especially on a seven seat barge when I was trying to wrangle all the passengers and their stuff in Florida heat.

The VAG systems I see at home though are a huge amount more "trusting" it seems so would be far easier to abuse I'd think.

I've personally moved one of the cars (Golf I think?) Out of the street, onto the driveway when the key was still in the pocket of the owner on the very far side of the garden. I also found myself wondering how on earth they could drive it...felt like the sort of visibility you'd expect in a submarine...that was before I started doing battle with the DSG gearbox, which nearly parked me in the boot of the Saab.