Hi Folks,
The car (a '93 model) has broken according to my missus. She said, she drove it normally for a mile, got stuck in traffic for half an hour with heater and fan and demisting stuff on, the car cut out. Wouldn't start, then did start, she turned round and came back. On the way back she saw the battery light come on while she was driving.
Later she tried to start it, it turned over, nearly firing, she says it produced loads of white smoke, but didn't go. I tried it myself when I got home, it spins over quite fast, very nearly running but doesn't quite catch. Dark, so I don't know about the smoke.
Battery voltage off load is 12.5V, brand new battery about three weeks ago, this seems a bit low now to me. I'm assuming I have a charging problem, but when I checked a few weeks back, the alternator was putting out 14V at idle, so hopefully it's a belt, or short journeys, or something else, air conditioning, dunno.
Is the white smoke unburnt diesel..?
If the battery capacity to supply current is low, do the glow plugs not get hot enough..?
Can the electrical load on the car at idle be more than the alternator chucks out, with fans and demisting and heater on..?
Does the air conditioning take much power..? I've noticed the light over the switch marked stop (next to the rear wiper switch) sometimes comes on, even if the switch has not been pressed. Seems to be on in a random way in general.
Anyway; so any suggestions..? Anyone had similar symptoms and what was the cure..?
Many thanks
Russell [:(]
XM 2.1 TD not starting / charging?
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AndersDK
- Posts: 6060
- Joined: 21 Feb 2003, 04:56
- x 1
Hi Russell -
The white smoke is likely to be unburnt diesel -
As it seems to be an electrical problem - you either have a glowplug problem - or still some mess with the charging.
The 12.5V battery voltage with engine/alternator NOT running is about normal - but slightly low maybe due to repeated unsuccessful startings.
The problem could be the glowplug relay - which did not release the glowplugs - thus constantly putting a heavy load on battery/alternator (Glowplugs takes a load of some 44Amps).
This problem may now have evolved into the relay reluctant to glow the plugs - hence the startproblems.
Could also be the plugs burnt out if the relay never released them in first place as original problem.
Note that the glow delay lamp is timed separately from the plugs - nothing to do with plugs actually disconnected when lamp distinguishes.
The plugs may in fact glow for several minutes - in some cases controlled by an engine temp sensor guiding the glowplug relay.
A/C does not take much electrical power - as it only uses power for the electrical clutch solonoid - presumely approx 5Amp.
But the A/C compressor takes approx 5Bhp from the engine - when engaged.
The radiator fan takes approx 12Amp (x2 if dual fan) - demister another approx 12Amp - and cabin blower some 10Amp (full speed).
All sums up to approx 40Amp - add to this any dipped headlamps (and tail) on - approx 10Amp. Total some 50Amps - close to the alternators capacity at engine idle. Put constant glowplugs on to this - and you have a battery drain even with alternator charging.
My main concern is however why the engine cutted out in first place ?
The route to take is first to get engine started.
This would require a little fiddling with checking the glowplugs - as you need to disconnect the heavy feed cable to each glowplug - then check each glowplug tip should read some 1 ohm resistance to earth.
Take into account the error reading on your ohm meter at lo-resistance. The idea is to find the glowplug with lowest reading - the others should be very close to this - if not - they have likely gone to glowplug heaven.
If all OK - then time the glowplugs with ignition key - and check they are all feeded with approx 11V directly at tip. If not - glowplug relay is faulty - or the battery voltage is too low when loaded. Check the battery voltage also when plugs timed by key.
Now prime the diesel fuel manual pump/bulb - ensuring air is not the problem - and try start the engine.
It will likely emit lots of smoke from unsuccesfull startings - but exhaust fuming should go back to normal shortly - within 1-2 minutes.
Once the engine is running it's possible to judge any problems.
The white smoke is likely to be unburnt diesel -
As it seems to be an electrical problem - you either have a glowplug problem - or still some mess with the charging.
The 12.5V battery voltage with engine/alternator NOT running is about normal - but slightly low maybe due to repeated unsuccessful startings.
The problem could be the glowplug relay - which did not release the glowplugs - thus constantly putting a heavy load on battery/alternator (Glowplugs takes a load of some 44Amps).
This problem may now have evolved into the relay reluctant to glow the plugs - hence the startproblems.
Could also be the plugs burnt out if the relay never released them in first place as original problem.
Note that the glow delay lamp is timed separately from the plugs - nothing to do with plugs actually disconnected when lamp distinguishes.
The plugs may in fact glow for several minutes - in some cases controlled by an engine temp sensor guiding the glowplug relay.
A/C does not take much electrical power - as it only uses power for the electrical clutch solonoid - presumely approx 5Amp.
But the A/C compressor takes approx 5Bhp from the engine - when engaged.
The radiator fan takes approx 12Amp (x2 if dual fan) - demister another approx 12Amp - and cabin blower some 10Amp (full speed).
All sums up to approx 40Amp - add to this any dipped headlamps (and tail) on - approx 10Amp. Total some 50Amps - close to the alternators capacity at engine idle. Put constant glowplugs on to this - and you have a battery drain even with alternator charging.
My main concern is however why the engine cutted out in first place ?
The route to take is first to get engine started.
This would require a little fiddling with checking the glowplugs - as you need to disconnect the heavy feed cable to each glowplug - then check each glowplug tip should read some 1 ohm resistance to earth.
Take into account the error reading on your ohm meter at lo-resistance. The idea is to find the glowplug with lowest reading - the others should be very close to this - if not - they have likely gone to glowplug heaven.
If all OK - then time the glowplugs with ignition key - and check they are all feeded with approx 11V directly at tip. If not - glowplug relay is faulty - or the battery voltage is too low when loaded. Check the battery voltage also when plugs timed by key.
Now prime the diesel fuel manual pump/bulb - ensuring air is not the problem - and try start the engine.
It will likely emit lots of smoke from unsuccesfull startings - but exhaust fuming should go back to normal shortly - within 1-2 minutes.
Once the engine is running it's possible to judge any problems.
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Doc
- Posts: 150
- Joined: 30 Dec 2002, 04:11
Hi Russell
May be the reason the car cut out was insufficient current to keep the fuel cut-off solenoid from staying open. This is located on the injector pump. When the car is started and running, the solenoid is energised and is kept open against spring pressure within the valve allowing diesel to flow into the pump. Check the feed to the solenoid just in case there is any damage such as chafing/loose connectors. My 2.1 XM had a similar problem when I first bought it 18 months ago. There was air getting into the fuel lines making it a pig to start,(lots of white smoke!), and then when it did start I had run the battery down so much the old glow plugs were drawing amps until there is not enough to go round. It can take up to 20 minutes of driving/alternator running to put back what the car has taken from the battery to start. If the car is being used daily on journeys less than this then the battery is in a constant deficit condition. Old glow plugs would certainly cause problems. Try to fit the correct rated ones as cheap ones (Halfords) won't go the distance.
Hope this helps.
May be the reason the car cut out was insufficient current to keep the fuel cut-off solenoid from staying open. This is located on the injector pump. When the car is started and running, the solenoid is energised and is kept open against spring pressure within the valve allowing diesel to flow into the pump. Check the feed to the solenoid just in case there is any damage such as chafing/loose connectors. My 2.1 XM had a similar problem when I first bought it 18 months ago. There was air getting into the fuel lines making it a pig to start,(lots of white smoke!), and then when it did start I had run the battery down so much the old glow plugs were drawing amps until there is not enough to go round. It can take up to 20 minutes of driving/alternator running to put back what the car has taken from the battery to start. If the car is being used daily on journeys less than this then the battery is in a constant deficit condition. Old glow plugs would certainly cause problems. Try to fit the correct rated ones as cheap ones (Halfords) won't go the distance.
Hope this helps.
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RichardW
- Forum Treasurer
- Posts: 12503
- Joined: 07 Aug 2002, 17:12
- x 1453
I wonder if your alternator or other auxiliary has partially seized. When the alternator seized on my BX TD (it just went solid!) it was impossible to start the engine with the belt still connected as the starter couldn't turn the engine over fast enough - belt off and away she went. Might be worth a look to make sure all on the auxiliary belt is going round as it should whilst the engine is cranked.
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Russell
- Posts: 102
- Joined: 20 Jan 2004, 03:15
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NiSk
- Posts: 1422
- Joined: 24 Jan 2002, 20:11
- x 1
Hi Russell, is the charging light still glowing? even faintly? If so your alternator brushes are shot (happens at about 140,000 miles on the TD12). Citroën say that you can't replace them - rubbish - assuming youv'e got a mitsubishi alternator, thay are the same as the Fiat Uno 70-. Bit of a fiddle to get at, but definately changeable. The white smoke is almost definately unburnt diesel and an air leak is the probable cause. Try pumping up the pressure with the hand pump incorporated in the fuel filter before your next cold start and see if it helps. Yes, even diesels need electrickery (much to my disgust) I too have been caught out by a duff alternator which let the volts drop so far that the stop solenoid engaged. Anders is right about the electrical load, but an alternator in good shape should easily handle it - youv'e probasbly got a 90 or 120 Ampere alternator on your car. And the probelm with the fuel preheater (also mentioned in another thread) is well known ovwer here in Sweden as well. My preheater has been disconnected for the past 8 years and I don't miss it.
//NiSk
//NiSk
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Russell
- Posts: 102
- Joined: 20 Jan 2004, 03:15
OK, I've got it started.
It runs like a dog, feels like it's firing on 2.5 to 3 cylinders. I ran the car down the road to a local garage about a mile away, the white smoke has been replaced by blue smoke as it warms up. Car won't idle when cold, but starts to idle afer about 10-15 minutes. Hair raising to drive, in fact.
Water system seems ok, needed a little to fill to the usual mark, not pressurised after 10 minutes running, not creamy or foaming, so hopeful it's not head gasket.
Oil horribly thin, half way between min and max, not creamy just black, I'll change it when the problems sorted. Smoke is blue-ish when warmed up however.
Pushing the fuel primer while it's running has no effect on it, as if the fuel system is delivering fuel OK, and as if it's not firing on all cylinders. No real power either, car just slow and smokey.
The belt for the alternator is very loose, I will recharge the battery and retighten the belt before next starting it to see if the alternator voltage comes up OK.
My current guess is that the injectors need a look at, and maybe a compression test while they are out. I'm assuming the alternator problem is incidental, and should be cured by re-tightening the belt, so I'll get on with that. Can rough running, blue smoke issues be caused by low battery voltage when running- I presume not?
Cheers
Russell [:(][:(]
It runs like a dog, feels like it's firing on 2.5 to 3 cylinders. I ran the car down the road to a local garage about a mile away, the white smoke has been replaced by blue smoke as it warms up. Car won't idle when cold, but starts to idle afer about 10-15 minutes. Hair raising to drive, in fact.
Water system seems ok, needed a little to fill to the usual mark, not pressurised after 10 minutes running, not creamy or foaming, so hopeful it's not head gasket.
Oil horribly thin, half way between min and max, not creamy just black, I'll change it when the problems sorted. Smoke is blue-ish when warmed up however.
Pushing the fuel primer while it's running has no effect on it, as if the fuel system is delivering fuel OK, and as if it's not firing on all cylinders. No real power either, car just slow and smokey.
The belt for the alternator is very loose, I will recharge the battery and retighten the belt before next starting it to see if the alternator voltage comes up OK.
My current guess is that the injectors need a look at, and maybe a compression test while they are out. I'm assuming the alternator problem is incidental, and should be cured by re-tightening the belt, so I'll get on with that. Can rough running, blue smoke issues be caused by low battery voltage when running- I presume not?
Cheers
Russell [:(][:(]