807 2.2 hdi glow plugs new - no start

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Humph7
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807 2.2 hdi glow plugs new - no start

Post by Humph7 » 04 Dec 2017, 14:47

Changed the plugs with the engine out and now faced with a new problem. Despite directly connecting the power directly, the engine will not start with the local temperature around 0C without using spray. There is power going to the plugs. The circuit shows individual supply wires but this car has one only.
The combined resistance is around 4 ohms or slightly less taking account of the leads.
Is there something else that I could be missing? Even with the old plugs, the engine was slow to start from cold.

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white exec
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Re: 807 2.2 hdi glow plugs new - no start

Post by white exec » 04 Dec 2017, 15:09

The resistance of an individual GP will be less than 1 ohm, and so quite difficult to measure.
Each plug should draw about 15A, so around 60A combined.
Cable feed from the GP relay varies from car to car. If a single cable, it needs to be about 4mm2 to cope with the current. A pair of 2.5mm would do, a pair of 4mm2 even better. This wiring run has been skimped on by PSA over the years.
Eye connectors at each end of the heavy-current GP wiring also relax their crimped-on grip over time, and can develop resistance inside the connector, and blackening of the cable strands. Best cleaned up and connectors (or cable) renewed.
GP relays also develop dirty contacts, externally and internally. Usually easily opened up and the contacts cleaned.

GPs can be tested one at a time (for current draw, if still fitted to engine), or removed and powered up with 12v. If the latter, do so only briefly: the tip should glow orange-hot within a two or three seconds. Do not prolong the test.

BERU brand GPs are highly recommended.

If starting still sluggish, check for air in fuel, and also charge/condition of battery. Battery voltage down will hinder GP operation, and slow up cranking speed.

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Re: 807 2.2 hdi glow plugs new - no start

Post by Humph7 » 04 Dec 2017, 15:51

Thanks for the comprehensive reply. Difficult to measure 60 amps with a meter that only does 20. Never mind. The starter is fairly new too. Battery is around 13 volts. Engine runs ok. Could it be that the injectors need a cleaning additive?

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white exec
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Re: 807 2.2 hdi glow plugs new - no start

Post by white exec » 04 Dec 2017, 19:41

If you have a 20A meter, check the plugs one at a time.
If engine runs ok, once started, then bad starting is usually either
- poor GP operation (plugs, relay, wiring, battery voltage)
- slow cranking (battery, battery connections, starter motor)
- air ingress into the fuel
On the last, the fuel pump draws the fuel from the tank by suction, and any small air-leak in pipework, or fuel filter/fuel heater, can suck in air but not show signs of fuel leakage out.
If you have a fuel priming button (or squeeze-bulb), pump it until it feels solid, then carry on pumping while trying to start. See whether this improves starting.

Also, how does starting compare, hot engine and cold engine?

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Re: 807 2.2 hdi glow plugs new - no start

Post by Humph7 » 04 Dec 2017, 20:22

Checking them one at a time is not possible due to their location at the rear. There is also a common strap connection which means that I can only access the end. I think that I might put a proper connection where the supply is connected to the strap as it is only a spade connection. I checked the old plugs and only one was under an ohm. I did some research and found that the resistance at the supply end to earth should be 1/4 of the resistance of a single plug. ie 1 ohm / 4 plugs = 0.25 ohm all the plugs are now new ones.
I measured 4 ohms which might indicate a bad connector.
Remember that this engine does not have individual leads to each plug.
The warm engine starts immediately.

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white exec
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Re: 807 2.2 hdi glow plugs new - no start

Post by white exec » 04 Dec 2017, 22:58

If a warm engine (one that has been up to temp, and then left for a while) starts immediately, then not likely there is air in fuel.
Understand the problem accessing the GPs. Good idea to ensure connection is as good as it can be.

To eliminate the GP relay, on a cold engine, you could hop a really good connection from battery+ to the GP rail or good cable for say 20-30 seconds, and then crank and start immediately. Disconnect the temp supply 30secs after it fires up (a bit of 'post-heating', which is what would normally happen in cold weather). If that produces a decent start, then GP relay probably needs attention.

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Re: 807 2.2 hdi glow plugs new - no start

Post by Humph7 » 04 Dec 2017, 23:15

At the moment, the relay is out and I am connecting the power manually. Tomorrow I will be making a better join to the gp rail in case that is the problem. When I have eliminated the problem, the relay will be reinstalled. I notice that on some later models, there are individual leads to the plugs. There might have been a problem before.
If it still plays up, then a direct lead to the fuse box will be tried.

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white exec
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Re: 807 2.2 hdi glow plugs new - no start

Post by white exec » 05 Dec 2017, 08:37

One of these makes high-current checking easy, without needing to cut the cable:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sealey-BT98-11 ... on+ammeter

Looking at the BERU website, two GPs are listed for your 807:
GN027, for RP up to 09666
GN054, for RP from 09667
Both are rated as 18.5A apiece at 11v supply.

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Re: 807 2.2 hdi glow plugs new - no start

Post by Humph7 » 05 Dec 2017, 12:00

Tried connecting directly to the gp rail spade and no better. Here are the plugs I fitted, https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4X-FOR-PEUGE ... 2749.l2649
Might it be a fuel problem as it takes a while on the starter before it runs?
The combined resistance is around .5 ohms which is about correct.
If it is not a glow plug issue, then what else? It has done 155.300 miles or 240,000 km

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Re: 807 2.2 hdi glow plugs new - no start

Post by Humph7 » 11 Dec 2017, 11:56

The temperature gauge works so what else? The GP heater light only comes on for a moment even when cold. I have connected up the GP line to the power directly with no improvement. Car starts fine when warm. When it does finally start, there is some smoke from the exhaust and the engine light goes out as normal. It has new plugs and relay which appear to be working.

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Re: 807 2.2 hdi glow plugs new - no start

Post by RichardW » 11 Dec 2017, 13:26

An HDi should start without plugs unless it is arctic.... So something else going on here I think. You really need to get Diagbox on it, and see what it's doing when cranking. Is the speed high enough (should be around 180 rpm), is the fuel pressure high enough, is it seeing cam/crank synch, is the airflow OK when running, what does the EGR flow look like? If the speed and fuel pressure is OK, then I would suspect a lack of compression - presume this has hydraulic lifters?

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Re: 807 2.2 hdi glow plugs new - no start

Post by Humph7 » 11 Dec 2017, 13:36

The shiny pipe from the turbo has a blank in it. Would this have any effect? I have a rev counter, so can check the engine speed later.

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Re: 807 2.2 hdi glow plugs new - no start

Post by myglaren » 11 Dec 2017, 22:48

RichardW wrote:
11 Dec 2017, 13:26
An HDi should start without plugs unless it is arctic....
Mine started instantly this morning at -9°C, never even thought of glow plugs until you mentioned it Richard.

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Re: 807 2.2 hdi glow plugs new - no start

Post by Humph7 » 12 Dec 2017, 09:43

Could low or high mileage be a factor? I saw a vid on youtube with an 807 starting in -32c cranking was agonizingly slow, but it started ok
.

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Zelandeth
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Re: 807 2.2 hdi glow plugs new - no start

Post by Zelandeth » 15 Dec 2017, 04:09

These engines do seem to suffer if the battery isn't perfect and spinning over quick enough. Try it again either with the battery fresh off the charger or if you've another spare, two batteries in parallel (as if you were doing a jump start).

You really need it hooked up to Diagbox to see what live data is being shown during cranking I think or you could wind up chasing your tail.

Cranking speed and fuel pressure being the first two parameters I'd be checking. I don't know exactly which figures you're looking for but I'm sure someone with the manuals will chime in.

One question which does also spring to mind: if the engine's been out has the car been off the road for some time? It's possible that if so it may still have summer diesel in the tank, which will make it harder for the pump to draw it from the tank.