Has my car been involved in an accident?

[Donkey]

Good morning all,

I recently bought a 65 plate DS5 BlueHDi 180 EAT6, a car I've been after for ages! I've had Citroens before, an AX10E Jazz (H-Reg), a Saxo X (R Reg), a C5 LX HDi 90 (53) and a DS3 Airdream DStyle Plus (12), amongst other cars. I always seem to get drawn back to Citroen. My dream car would be a Citroen DS23 Pallas . So I finally managed to find what I thought was a nice example and parted with the money (with the help of finance...).

This is going to be long-winded so I apologise and thank you in advance for reading.

All was well until I realised the car was pulling to the left so took it to Kwikfit for an alignment check. Front was near perfect but the left rear wheel was showing a toe of 0 degrees 18' to the left, putting it in the red giving a total rear toe of 0 degrees 42' to the left, again putting it in the red. The rear right wheel was within tolerance. They said they could not adjust it as the rear suspension is non-adjustable. Fair enough.

A few days later I was giving the car a thorough clean up, lifting the seats, etc. and found a fair bit of broken glass - the same tint as the rear windows and the same make-up, ie laminated. I also found a fair bit in the left rear door pocket, and not as much in the right rear door pocket. At this point I put two and two together with alarm bells: this has been in a smash at some point! The following day I took it back to the dealer (not Citroen), but on my way I went via a Citroen dealer and presented the head technician with the alignment printout and the glass. His words were, "It's been in an accident, the broken glass being the classic telltale. The rear suspension is not adjustable and the alignment suggests something is bent" He didn't inspect the car, I didn't ask him to. I went on to the dealer where I bought the car and presented my concerns with the evidence. I was told it hadn't been in an accident, the suspension was out of line due to a pothole and can be readjusted. When I told him what the Citroen Tech told me, he said "anything can be repaired". The broken glass could have happened at any time, apparently. They called the previous owner to see if it had been in an accident: it hadn't. The HPI check was clear.

They took the car for inspection. Later that day I got a call saying it was all fixed and was ready to collect. Apparently Kwikfit had entered the wrong car into their database (Citroen DS5 except Hybrid except EP6 CDTX, Sports Pack 2011-), hence the readings. The dealer used Citroen 2015 DS5 EP6 CDTX engine with sport pack. Nearly identical tolerances/parameters, with a variation of 0 degrees 01' on the toe and 0 degrees 06' on the caster. They apparently made very slight adjustments but I could not find out what actually was adjusted - I did try! However the rear now shows: left 0 degrees 16' in the red (toeing left); right 0 degrees 15' in the red (toeing right). Total rear toe is 0 degrees 31', again in the red. The car felt better to drive. I got home and discovered they had switched the tyres front to back, which I thought odd: Rear tyres are now 6mm tread and front 3.5mm tread. Front tyres are now Michelin Primacy, rear left Hankook and rear right Goodyear. I haven't checked the pressures but the TPMS thing shows them to be fine. All are in good condition with no sign of uneven wear.

I noticed today, or rather a nosey work colleague did, that there was only one alarm sensor in the rear of the car. There is one on the left side rear pillar(?) just behind the rear door in the same panel as the curtain airbag, but not one on the right hand pillar. Nor is there a hole for where there should be one (ie it hasn't come away, been knocked off, etc) which is leading me to the conclusion that the sensor has not been re-instated during a repair after the airbag has deployed. The alarm bells are now klaxons!

So, to surmise:
1. Car pulls to the left
2. Rear tracking is out, left and right
3. Broken glass in the rear of the car
4. Left rear curtain airbag cover has an alarm sensor, the right side does not.

Am I jumping to the conclusion that this car has been involved in quite a substantial bash (taking into account the possible airbag deployment) or could there be any other conclusions to draw from this?

Again, apologies for the length of this post. I just want to present all the information I have so a full insight can be given. Any advice or clues on what else to look for would be greatly appreciated.

[white exec]

Get an independent engineer inspection of the car. RAC/AA/others will be able to offer this. Your insurers may also be able to provide a reliable engineer.
If the car has been extensively repaired, there will be other definite tell-tales of this, which an expert will be able to spot.
Either way, it looks as sold not as described, and you therefore would have a case for return and refund. Again, RAC etc would help ram this home.
Get as much as possible in writing, and keep all documentation and reports.

[GiveMeABreak]

I agree with what Chris has said.

If you provide me with your VIN code I can look up and see what exact spec the car is and possibly confirm the ultrasonic sensor issue for you.

[Bick]

Sorry to hear about your car i hate to hear of this kind of thing happening!

Ask the garage if they would be willing to swop the car - tell them you will be forced to get an independent engineers report if they wont swop the car.

If the wont swop it get an engineers report as suggested above ^^^ as it does sound more and more like its been in an accident.

But note you also have odd tyres on the car, this could make any car pull to one side, however in your case i doubt that is the problem with the evidence you have presented in your post.

[white exec]

Agree with both points above:
- get a pair of identical and appropriate tyres on the back, so that can't be pointed to
- make the request for a swap to the dealer first (you never know) .

[GiveMeABreak]

I noticed today, or rather a nosey work colleague did, that there was only one alarm sensor in the rear of the car. There is one on the left side rear pillar(?) just behind the rear door in the same panel as the curtain airbag, but not one on the right hand pillar. Nor is there a hole for where there should be one (ie it hasn't come away, been knocked off, etc) which is leading me to the conclusion that the sensor has not been re-instated during a repair after the airbag has deployed. The alarm bells are now klaxons!

4. Left rear curtain airbag cover has an alarm sensor, the right side does not.

I've confirmed from doing some research from another 180 - there is only an alarm sensor fitted to the left of the vehicle - not the right.

The parts list below (7) & (8) show only the bracket and support for a left side sensor - nothing for the right, also confirmed by checking the wiring harness for the sensor - only goes to the left. So looks like Citroen have cut a few costs / decided it was not necessary to provide another one.
(Click to zoom the picture)

[Gibbo2286]

It's entirely possible that the selling dealer is completely innocent is these circumstances if the car hasn't been written off by an insurer and has been repaired by a salvage fixer upper.

Many cars are advertised as damaged but 'not recorded', they get bought by repairers, sometimes not very expert at the mechanics but excellent at the cosmetics and sold back into the trade.

[GiveMeABreak]

From the AA - Faults, Repairs & Refunds:

Under the new act, if a fault renders the product not of satisfactory quality, not fit for purpose or not as described, then the buyer is entitled to reject it within the first 30 days.

Between 30 days and 6 months

If a fault comes to light after 30 days but before 6 months you’re entitled to a repair, replacement or refund.

It’s assumed in law that the fault was present at the time of purchase unless the seller can prove otherwise.
Unless you’ve agreed otherwise, the seller (dealer) has only one opportunity to repair (or replace) the faulty vehicle after which, if they fail to repair it, you’re entitled to a refund.
In the event of a refund following a failed attempt at repair during the first six months the seller may make a 'reasonable' adjustment to the amount refunded to take account of the use that you’ve had of the vehicle.
After 6 months

The burden is on you to prove that the product was faulty at the time of delivery if you want to pursue a claim for repair or replacement.

And some advice on selling accident damaged cars without disclosing from Honest John:
https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/askhj/answ ... sclose-it-

[Donkey]

Thanks for the responses

I have been contemplating on getting an independent engineer's report so will now get one organised, looking at RAC. I'll go for the Advanced inspection so everything's checked out.

I've confirmed from doing some research from another 180 - there is only an alarm sensor fitted to the left of the vehicle - not the right.

Excellent detective work there, one less thing to worry about!


Gibbo2286: I'm happy to accept that the dealer didn't know about any possible previous accidents as they have run a HPI check, called the previous owner and the garage involved in previous servicing (a Citroen dealer) and nothing came back from that route. Any suspected repairs could have been made off the books, so to speak.

My plan of action now is:
1. Get a vehicle inspection done (Wednesday or Thursday, the only time I can do it). If it comes back clear then good, my mind is at ease.
2. If not satisfactory then I'll ask the dealer for a swap.
3. If no swap I'll go down the Consumer Rights Act and refuse it. I've owned the car for ten days now so got good time to act.

[bobins]

Have a close look at the markings printed on all the various glass windows on your car. It's possible to date the manufacture of the glass from working out the date codes. Don't expect them all to be the same as that doesn't provide conclusive proof of anything, but they should have been manufactured roughly around the same year - if one or more of them is wildly out then that will indicate that piece of glass has been replaced. The one main problem with this is that your car was made relatively recently so all the date codes will be recent However - if all bar one is printed with the Citroen / DS logos, then that would point to one that's been replaced.
More info on dating car glass - http://www.elsie.com.ua/eng/mark.html

[Donkey]

These are the alignment printouts. First one is from Kwikfit, second is from the dealer. I'll admit I don't really know what I'm looking at here. But I'm sure there should be nothing in the red!

First Alignment Check: Kwikfit

Second Alignment Check: Dealer

[Donkey]

Have a close look at the markings printed on all the various glass windows on your car. It's possible to date the manufacture of the glass from working out the date codes. Don't expect them all to be the same as that doesn't provide conclusive proof of anything, but they should have been manufactured roughly around the same year - if one or more of them is wildly out then that will indicate that piece of glass has been replaced. The one main problem with this is that your car was made relatively recently so all the date codes will be recent However - if all bar one is printed with the Citroen / DS logos, then that would point to one that's been replaced.
More info on dating car glass - http://www.elsie.com.ua/eng/mark.html

I've checked all windows for markings. The rear right door window shows 2012, the rest are 2015

I've had a closer look at the body work and have found an unfinished rough mark a few inches long near to the door catch on the rear pillar. It's not at a point where any of the rubber seals make contact so it's not caused by wearing. It feels rough, too. A defect from manufacture perhaps?

Anyway, couldn't get RAC to do a check so went with a Comprehensive inspection from AA. Hope to get it done during the next week.

[GiveMeABreak]

Keep an eye on the time - 30 days to reject / replace or refund.

Is that rough finish on the same side that the window glass was replaced? If so, it could well be from a recent bodyshop repair job. Hopefully if you get an inspection they should be able to spot any structural repairs - and if that is the case - then more reason to reject it. More importantly, either the dealer did not disclose the damage or was not aware of it - but the previous owner (s) would of been and have not disclosed it - either case your deal was with the dealer not the previous owner. If it has sustained some structural damage and been repaired and resprayed without your knowledge then who knows what you have bought?

Don't forget, as you have mentioned you purchased it with finance - the finance company / lender also has a vested interest in this and can also bring their weight to bear, as technically, they own / part own the car!

[Pug_XUD_KeenAmateur]

I had an idea that laws had changed fairly recently and a quick google uncovered this
https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights ... rights-act

It appears very likely that you've got a write off and I think you should ensure you get shot of it ASAP (with a full refund from the dealer)......

Some tips (assuming it is a write off - seems like a no brainer to me)
Record any verbal comms with the supplying dealer, most phones have video and sound recording facilities.
Back up everything in writing and send comms by expensive post (not just Recorded)
Make sure you've got a resolution to this before your 30 days are up, or at least satisfied the '30 day rule' so that you can still reject it.
Make a fuss at the Dealer's especially when they're busy
If you have to, while staying on the public pavement outside, point out the issues with your car to any potential customers.
Get in touch with the finance company, if there is one
Try not to involve Solicitors, as their motives aren't necessarily the same as yours, whatever they might say
Go 'to the top' if you have to, with the dealer, eg Regional Manager, or Head Office.
If the car is unsafe put it in writing that this is so and threaten to sue for driving a potential death-trap or illegal vehicle
Google the dealer himself and his other vehicles - is there any evidence that he's supplied other write offs?
Ask the Police if they can assist or are interested (make sure he knows you're going to talk to them)
Do not be 'polite' and don' be lazy about it, put the time & effort in to make yourself the biggest Pain in the XXXX you possibly can and get it sorted.

[bobins]

Whilst your car does sound like it's previously been involved in an accident, it doesn't necessarily mean it's all bad. The fact that it looks like second hand parts have been used to repair it does warrant further investigation though, and it's quite probable that it hasn't been repaired through an insurance company, so there won't be anything on the insurance database showing previous claims and/or repairs. The rear alignment being out doesn't necassarily mean the whole car is out of square either - I had my 2009 C5 checked for alignment a few years ago and the rear was shown to be out on that, and as far as I'm aware mine has never been involved in an accident that would throw the chassis or wheels out of alignment.
What I would suggest is that you consider paying for a proper condition survey and inspection on your car - the sort of thing the RAC (and others) would come out and do.