Broken valve rocker (I think)

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smoker
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Broken valve rocker (I think)

Post by smoker »

Driving my Xsara 110 hdi gently this afternoon. Suddenly starts running roughly, with a very loud, heavy knocking/banging noise. Got recovered home. I've taken the plastic rocker cover off and found what I believe is a valve rocker, and the circular disc that fits in the rocker, resting between valves 6 and 7 (if valve 1 is at the pulley end of the engine). The bits are clearly from valve 6.

I'm not really sure what I'm now in to. I'm guessing there is a pin of some kind that hold the circular disc in the rocker, and that that pin has snapped or fallen out. Do these things break with age/mileage (120,000), or does this indicate a bigger failure somewhere else that has caused the pin to snap? there doesn't appear to be any damage to the rocker, disc or cam lobe. For clarity, the timing belt is still in tact and the timing is spot on. The engine will start and idle (better when cold) but knocks and bangs badly.

The cam looks like it runs in a carrier which is then attached to the head. Is this right? If so, can I replace the rocker by just removing this carrier and without disturbing the head?

Separately, is this a bucket and shim engine? If so, how could I check clearances before I get into the job of replacing the rocker? (If I'm in there I might as well re-shim if required).

I'm reasonably competent but have never worked on this engine before so not sure where to start. Any guidance would be much appreciated.

Many thanks in advance.
52 reg Xsara 110 hdi
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Re: Broken valve rocker (I think)

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

Something like these?;

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Citroen-2-0-2 ... SwYGFUviZB

They are designed to be the weakest link (in the case of a timing belt failure), and you can buy several as a set. You just need to make sure you get the right ones (these are not, I think. I just posted the link for the image.).
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Re: Broken valve rocker (I think)

Post by smoker »

Thanks - Yes - the parts now on my kitchen worktop look just like that.

Easy fix? Could it have failed due to valve clearance issues?
52 reg Xsara 110 hdi
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Re: Broken valve rocker (I think)

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

I cannot say WHY it failed, as I have yet to experience such a failure, although other forum members might be able to offer an insight. I found that on e-bay. Please make sure you order the right ones. I am of the mind that it would be worth replacing the full set.
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Re: Broken valve rocker (I think)

Post by wheeler »

You have to remove the camshaft to change the rockers but you dont need to remove the cylinder head. There are no shims & buckets, there are hydraulic lifters so not adjustable.
Make sure you get all the old broken bits out, you will have to fish around with a magnet, there are around 15 needle rollers in each rocker.
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Re: Broken valve rocker (I think)

Post by Peter.N. »

First time I have heard of one breaking spontaneously, you must have been very unlucky, if that's the 8 valve engine they are usually bombproof.

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Re: Broken valve rocker (I think)

Post by smoker »

Many thanks wheeler/Peter N. It is the 8v engine. Now I look closer I can see the hydraulic tappets. I might change all 8 rockers as a precaution (circa £10 each). Wondering about the hydraulic tappets as well (around £5 each)?
52 reg Xsara 110 hdi
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Re: Broken valve rocker (I think)

Post by Peter.N. »

I would be inclined to check that the appropriate valve is opening freely and fully before you fit the new rockers. I had a valve seat insert fall out once, that was a long time ago though - BMC 1500 diesel.

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Re: Broken valve rocker (I think)

Post by smoker »

Thanks all for the responses. Belts all off and cam shaft/carrier removed. However, the mystery deepens.

All I've recovered is the outer bearing race and the rocker arm. The inner race, needle bearings and the spring clip that holds the rocker on to the tappet are nowhere to be seen, even after 30 mins of looking and poking with a long magnet. I find it very unlikely that they've migrated to the end of the head through the oil-ways and dropped e.g into the sump. The inner race especially would be too big and heavy to flow with oil. Which makes me wonder - was it always a faulty part (either from new or fitted after an issue before my ownership)? Certainly there are groves in the top of the rocker arm where the cam lobe has pressed on the rocker rather than the outer bearing race. The valve opens freely.

Given this finding, I think I'll order just one rocker and compare how that feels against the existing ones. If similar, I'll just go with that, a new cam belt, and a camshaft oil seal.

If anyone has any other thoughts, I'd be very interested to hear them.

Thanks again.
52 reg Xsara 110 hdi
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Re: Broken valve rocker (I think)

Post by lexi »

Not had any dealings with rockers on my same engine. I bet you are tempted to drop the sump though for a looksee ?
Gibbo may have some ideas, as he was into the rockers on his very recently with broken cambelt.
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Re: Broken valve rocker (I think)

Post by wheeler »

Done a fair few of these after broken timing belts, the needle rollers generaly stay in the head area. Count how many are in the new one to see how many are missing.
Usually just sticking a magnet in & fishing around pulls loads up, occasionally ive had a few unaccounted for but they have never caused any damage to my knowledge.
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Re: Broken valve rocker (I think)

Post by Gibbo2286 »

I'd check the timing belt and the rollers it runs around carefully, my problem was caused but the plastic idler falling apart and letting the belt jump a few teeth. all my rockers were broken but the belt wasn't.

I fished around with a magnet for ages getting the bits out, even used a Karcher wet vacuum cleaner to suck the oil out of the various hollows..........I 'think' I got them all out. :) Car's fine now.
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smoker
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Re: Broken valve rocker (I think)

Post by smoker »

So I changed the single broken rocker that I had found, and popped a new cam belt on for good measure. I've just done a twenty mile round trip and, touch wood, everything seems back to its old self. A failure like this knocks your confidence in a car, so it'll be quite a few thousand before I start to rest easy again, but we'll see...
52 reg Xsara 110 hdi
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Re: Broken valve rocker (I think)

Post by Peter.N. »

Pleased you didn't find anything else, hopefully just a spontaneous failure - they do happen.

Peter
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