Radiator leak???

[Jennyc]

Hoping for about of advice as I'm sick of local garages ripping me off!
Recently had my 2009 reg 207 Verve mot'd and an advisory was given for a radiator/coolant leak. There does appear to be a leak which I can't find but at the same time, even with the recent hot weather, the temperature gauge is staying low and only seems to rise after the car has been sat in the sun all day. Surely if there was a coolant leak the engine would be over heating?
Confused to say the least

[Paul-R]

More than that you would have to keep topping up the coolant surely? Do you?

[Pug_XUD_KeenAmateur]

....I'm sick of local garages ripping me off!

I got sick of getting ripped off too, which along with the fact that I'm broke, is how I came to be doing my own maintenance.

Welcome to the Forum.

Whether or not the car overheats will depend on how much water the car is losing.

The simplest way to find the leak would be to ask the person that MOT'd it to show you where its leaking....

...but alternatively, look for where the puddle is when its parked

If it doesn't seem to leak when its parked up normally, try leaving it running a while after you get home from a reasonable length run of not less than 20mins duration (check first that there's no pre-existing puddle) and see if it leaves you 'a little present' on the floor. The location of the 'present' will assist you in finding the leak.

Keep an eye the the gauge / warning lights, if you do this, just to be sure its not boiling up.

Also look around the ends of the hoses where they join the various components for staining of the component or swelling of the hose.

And check the radiator itself appears 'consistent' in its appearance (if its possible to see), that'll depend on how cramped the engine bay is

Be cautious if you're peering into the engine area with the car running that you don't have any loose fitting clothing that could get into a moving part, such as a tie or neckscarf that could potentially get caught and throttle you

[myglaren]

What sort of temperatures are indicated?

If the coolant has leaked out sufficiently to leave the sensor unsubmerged then you will in all probability get a false reading from it.
Do you get any 'curry-ish' smells in the car? This would indicate a leaking heater matrix and the leak would be mostly unseen until it gets really bad - then water in the passenger footwell.

If you do find a leak then Forte Cooling System Leak Stop (available on eBay and through some garages) will cure it temporarily but a permanent repair will ultimately be called for.
Don't be tempted to use any other leak fixes (Barrs Stop-Leak, Radweld etc.) as thy have been shown to clog cooling systems and cause more headaches than they fix.

Welcome to the FCF

[xantia_v6]

For the MOT tester to give an advisory, there must have been externally visible signs of leakage. If the leak is very small, it may only be visible when the system is pressurised. A good garage will have a pressure tester (something like a bicycle pump with an adapter fitting) that can be used to pressurise the system when it is cold, which makes it much easier to see a small leak.

If you have any suspicion of a water leak, check the level daily, don't rely on the temperature gauge, as by the time it registers overheating, the engine could be destroyed (if you are unlucky) .

[Paul-R]

The OP (Jennyc) hasn't come back yet about whether or not she's having to top the system up so we don't know how bad the leak is.

We also don't know where the leak is from.

[Jennyc]

Thank you all for the reply's
While the weather was hot there was definitely leakage on the floor directly under the radiator. was topping up about half a litre of water every 2 or 3 days. since then I haven't noticed anything.
I can't see where the leak might be as it's cramped under the bonnet.
I haven't noticed any smells but I'll try leaving the engine running when parked and see if anything happens.
The temp gauge has never gone over 90, water was last topped up last Wednesday and I check again last night and it was still almost full.
I'll also call the garage that MOT'd and see if they can tell me exactly where the leak was

[Paul-R]

... I check again last night and it was still almost full.

If you're filling up the expansion tank then you should only be going to about half-way (there should be marks for Max and Min somewhere on/in the tank - check your handbook). The expansion tank is there to take excess coolant from when the engine is hot. The coolant expands and takes up space in the tank until the engine cools down and is sucked back in.

If you're filling up to the top there's no space for this hot liquid and it will be forced out of the tank making it look like there's a leak.

[Mandrake]

While the weather was hot there was definitely leakage on the floor directly under the radiator. was topping up about half a litre of water every 2 or 3 days. since then I haven't noticed anything.

I hope you're not just topping it up with distilled water, or even worse, tap water.

If there is a large leak and you are adding that much plain water that often you are diluting the normal 50/50 coolant/antifreeze mix and at that rate very soon you will have mostly water in the system - which means as soon as winter comes around it will freeze and crack the engine block, basically destroying the engine. Also without a proper mixture of coolant there will be no protection against corrosion, so even if the block didn't get cracked due to freezing you'd get a lot of corrosion in the cooling system which would eventually clog it up with brown rusty muck.

Also, if you're using tap water you will be introducing lime and other minerals that will cause limescale buildup inside the cooling system over the longer term which will eventually cause blockages. In short, never top up a leaking coolant system with plain water except in a "get you home" emergency, after which it should be drained and refilled with the correct coolant mix. If you have no choice but to keep topping up and driving in the short term, buy some bottles of ready mixed 50/50 coolant of the right type for your engine and top up with that, not with water. It's not that expensive, especially if you shop around online.

Finally, depending on how bad the leak is it may be preventing the system from pressurising when it gets hot - if the system can't pressurise it lowers the boiling point of the coolant, (as does diluting it with too much plain water) which can easily lead to the coolant boiling when the engine is hot, which again could lead to damage to the head due to localised heating, even if the temperature gauge looks normal. (The coolant may be at a normal temperature where the sensor is but a pocket elsewhere may have boiled into steam causing a vapour lock and loss of cooling in that area)

With the amount of leakage you're reporting you really need to get that fixed ASAP or you run a significant risk of fatal or serious long term damage. If it's the radiator itself that's leaking its usually not that big a job to replace.

I replaced the radiator on my Xantia V6 a few months ago because it was leaking - it wasn't loosing nearly as much as you're describing but it was leaving a puddle on the ground, and as the car doesn't have a low coolant level warning I only discovered it by accident when I noticed the puddle under the car. No clues from the temperature gauge at all.

As xantia_v6 said earlier, with coolant leaks once you see the temperature gauge going dangerously high its often too late and the damage has been done. The temperature gauge is to warn you about the engine overheating due to overloading, not due to loss of coolant. In fact sometimes the temperature gauge will read unusually low when there is sufficient coolant loss as the sensor may no longer be in contact with the coolant and may be sitting in a pocket of air...

[Pug_XUD_KeenAmateur]

good advice from previous posters about the antifreeze and temp etc, might I add a suggestion to....

get a quote from at least a couple of sources, with a mind for the constituent parts of the quote
ie parts: (Radiator 'd seem likely)
time in Labour
and other sundries, eg antifreeze

then you can at least check online or via a phone call to a Factors or Specialist, if you're being charged about the right rate for the parts....

and I'm sure someone here will be able to tell you what the 'Book Time' is for a 207 radiator replacement*, so a simple multiplication of hourly labour rate x book time will give you a figure. (I'm not Trade, so I don't have access to said book), but I'd be surprised if its much more than about 2 hours.

And listen carefully to what the garage fella says about what he's quoting you to do and use the 'Mirroriing' technique of convo to ensure that's understood.

I noted on the one and only occasion [and that was a mistake] that I used a garage, my original Invoice stated the "full RRP" cost of parts, which I knew was nowhere near what I'd have paid myself at the same source, which I have visited a number of times over the years... and I'm sure that Traders get regular customer discounts which I'm not privy to.

Don't overlook the little independent guy tucked away on an Industrial estate and DO ask your friends, especially those with older cars; for recommendations.
I'm dead against the big bold names of the Industry, often primarily Tyre & Battery Suppliers [I'm not gonna name names as I'm sure Jim doesn't want any Lawyers letters]
...and I'm sure someone here will have a positive story to share about such outfits that I personally wouldn't touch with a barge pole.**

And have a google too, before getting the quotes and immediately before accepting one: I once noted that a Bathroom Fitter who had appeared cosher was being investigated for not the first time, by the Office of Fair Trading, and so I quickly struck him off the shortlist for Mum-in-Law's new shower.

Sadly, and with a little embarrassment, might I also suggest that in at least one case the car is taken to a garage for quoting by a male person. Its sexist and it shouldn't be so, but I do think its true that as a woman you're more likely to get ripped off. Your son's, husband's or friend's insurance policy most likely includes cover to drive your vehicle with your permission assuming you own it outright. The 'main' policy document of the 'substitute driver' will include a clause to this effect if so (mine does).

and finally, don't pay VAT on VAT. If an Invoice states a £120 price for a radiator inc VAT and there's then VAT on the foot of the bill, that's not on, and would effectively mean that you'd be paying an extra £24 immediately.

Good luck with it.... and do feel free to 'drop by with a sticky bun for the lads' to both 'be nice' and see that the garage appear to doing what you're paying them to do at a time when you feel there's a good chance the car 'll be 'apart' mid-repair.

*for the purposes of simplicity, although you could be lucky, could just be a hose (eg.)

**my favourite such story, which can be taken as true, or simply Urban Myth, possibly the latter is best.
Fella goes to a large well known outfit for a pair of rear tyres, accepts the price and instructs the work for the new rubber.
The fitter puts the car on the lift and part way thru the job company rep appears and says "I'm sorry sir but your shock absorbers are completely knackered and I really feel that for your safety, they should be replaced"
OK, says the customer, you carry on and do the shocks too
At the desk customer is presented with an invoice for £300 or thereabouts....
"sorry says the customer, but this is incorrect, you see those shockers are only 6 months old, having been fitted by a nearby branch of this very outfit" and come with a lifetime warranty, here's the receipt to prove it.... so they're free, thank you, but I do owe you for the tyres "