Aisin Tf-80 / AM6 Oil Change Questions (Mini-Guide Page 4)

[EDC5]

UPDATE: Oil change now done.. details here viewtopic.php?f=3&t=58134&start=45#p543115

I'm planning to change as much of the oil in the AM6 box as possible.
Having read several guides and seen a few YouTube videos (some in English) most people are content with removing the drain plug and allowing the 3 or so litres of oil to drain then refit the plug and add JWS3309 (in my case) until it overflows and be done with it.

This only changes around 3 of the 7 litres or so I'm told. Not good enough really as multiple changes are needed and a lot of fresh oil is wasted

The same gearbox on a Volvo has a separate oil radiator and their method seems to use the feed and return pipe to change more of the oil.

On the C5 we have the Oil/Water heat exchanger instead of a separate rad



My question is: Can the heat exchanger be removed to drain more of the oil out as it appears to be slightly lower down on the box than the actual drain (black) plug on my C5:



Also, is there a definitive Citroen procedure for ascertaining the correct fluid level as I seem to get a different method from every source I find

[Xantippa]

I got all of my oil changed at gearbox-specialist. It costed 200€ with oil and labour. First they drained that 3l from bottom plug, then I think they opened the heat exhanger and drained that. After that they connected oil filler to drain plug, and put new oil in while engine running and just waited when clean oil was starting to come out. I'm not quite sure where oil came out at that point because I was in the car up in the air changing gears. Heat exhanger I guess. I think there is some sorf of pipe upwards on that drain plug, and there's right amount of oil when oil starts to come out through that pipe.

[Gibbo2286]

I've been reading the Citroen workshop manual for this and one thing I notice is the warning "Any addition of oil other than the Citroen special oil will cause the destruction of the gearbox." The oil is Esso JWS 3309

Also it says "The oil change is partial since the converter cannot be totally drained."

And "Initialise the used oil counter (Follow the diagnostic tool procedure.)"

[NewcastleFalcon]

Marc (Username Give Me a Break) did a useful reply on the AM6 Oil Change on a C5.

His post is here

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=56837&p=517406&hilit=am6#p517292


I do believe that oddly, Citroen spec 2 different fluids for this box depending on which specific engine you have fitted to your C5.

I have the same box fitted to a Vauxhall Vectra and it specifies only AW-1 fluid, and specifically not JWS 3309.

I don't have the precise knowledge of the Citroen specs for the C5, but Marc and others will.

Regards Neil

[EDC5]

Thanks for that guys. I have indeed checked the correct oil on the Citroen service website and have purchased 6 litres of Mobil JWS3309.

Yeah, only changing around 3 litres is poor design if you ask me. I think I'll take off the heat exchanger like Xantippa did, there should be a few ml of oil in that.

I understand the principle of the drain plug but do you add oil until it overflows when hot or cold? Some guides I've read say that you add oil until it overflows, seal it up then add 500ml extra.... Some say wait until it overflows at precisely 60 degrees ..... so much confusion.

I've got a Lexia and Diagbox so I can reset the used oil counter.

Also, is it acutally necessary to change the seals for the drain plug and the inner drain plug?

[EDC5]

Just an update, after reading I have found a section of a C6 dealers manual ( I think ) that details the standard method for changing 3 of the 7 litres of fluid:



These pages clarify the issue of checking the level: Basically you ensure the gearbox is above 60 degrees and add oil until the the "thread" of oil leaving through the level check plug becomes "drip drip"

I'm still debating whether or not to remove the heat exchanger in order to drain as much as possible, it may be more trouble than its worth? Has anyone changed the heat exchanger before?

In addition, I think I will make an annual change of 3L of transmission fluid rather than doing multiple changes in short succession. Long term this will be better for the gearbox.

One final thing, The replacement compression washer I will be using is actually a GM part number:93183578, the availability for the PSA part in Britain is low and my local Citroen dealer is beyond useless... seriously.
I'll take my chances with reusing the o-ring as availability for them is even lower although I may enquire at the Vauxhall dealer for that too.

[elma]

Surely an o ring can be sourced anywhere. I have a case of metric ones and a case of imperial ones. I just replace them with the same size if i disturb them.

[EDC5]

Yeah, thats what I was thinking to be honest.

Not sure if its made from a specific material though?

I'm heading into town and I'll see what I can rustle up from the vauxhall garage.

[milleplod]

I'm following this with interest! My '09 C5 is Euro4, so (I believe) uses the 3309 oil, and is ready for a change. I daren't attempt it myself, local 'autobox specialists' aren't interested, local dealer wanted £600+ to do it (!!! )....I'm a bit stumped really. I've a friend who's a really good, self-taught-over-the-years mechanic, who can turn his hand to most jobs (he rebuilt his Maserati engine a while ago, scared me to death looking at all the bits on the bench!), and has a garage and equipment to die for - he's offered to do the '3 litres at a time' change for me, so perhaps that's the way forward.

Anyway, whilst looking for the fluid, I dropped on this -
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ATF-JWS-3309- ... Sw0UdXsvBm

Any observations? Does it have to be Esso? I trust Smith and Allan, having bought some very specific grease for my bike's driveshaft from them in the past, and their tech helpline is very good, so I'm happy that I wouldn't be buying something not up to the job - and the price looks very good too, of course, always a bonus!

Pete

[EDC5]

Yeah, from what I've read the Euro 4 engines use the 3309 oil. I'm not sure if it has to be ESSO but I've chosen Mobil oil, (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mobil-ATF-330 ... xyj4hTGZJM)


(Huge pic )

I'm sure that oil would be fine but for me I decided for my own piece of mind that Mobil would be best.

From the sounds of it your friend would be more than capable of the job, the main issue is knowing the gearbox oil temp using a Lexia. The instructions I posted say 60 (-2,+8) degrees so there is a bit of a margin.

I'm just waiting to source a compression washer for the drain plug then I'll give it a go.

[milleplod]

Ah, yes, I'd forgotten about needing Lexia for the temp! His garage has lots of stuff in it, but nothing as specific as that. Back to square one it is!

Pete

[Gibbo2286]

The problem with the temperature is that you can't always have it at 60c when you need to top up, like myself with the s/h box I'm fitting, car hasn't been started for a couple of years, box is from a breaker so no history and I'd want to check that the box has sufficient oil before I start it up.

It's suggested in the manual to take the level plug out and top up through the filler plug with a half litre and let it overflow.

The filler procedure uses a pot with a hose (special tool) easy to knock up home made.

[Gibbo2286]

Surely an o ring can be sourced anywhere. I have a case of metric ones and a case of imperial ones. I just replace them with the same size if i disturb them.

Maybe not!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shu ... _concerns

[EDC5]

The problem with the temperature is that you can't always have it at 60c when you need to top up, like myself with the s/h box I'm fitting, car hasn't been started for a couple of years, box is from a breaker so no history and I'd want to check that the box has sufficient oil before I start it up.

It's suggested in the manual to take the level plug out and top up through the filler plug with a half litre and let it overflow.

The filler procedure uses a pot with a hose (special tool) easy to knock up home made.

Hmm, this is just my view but surely you could add oil until it overflows cold, then warm the box up with the level check plug and fill plug out.... that way any excess can expand, escape and not damage anything?

[myglaren]

Could you use an IR thermometer to determine the temperature?

This sort of thing