405 Push Type Clutch, Help!

[evilally]

I have nearly completed my 405 XU10J4RS conversion (I'll maybe post a project thread) but I'm having a bit of trouble with the clutch and/or gearbox. Something makes a horrendous noise with the clutch engaged in neutral:



The original box and clutch on the 1.6 was a push type setup. I've rebuilt the 1.6 box with shafts and diff from a Xsara VTS to give more desirable gearing. For the clutch I've used a phase 1 Mi16 push type. This all seemed to work well in my test fit up before I rebuilt the box.

Everything came out after a successful test fit and run. The box was rebuilt, and I've had the clutch off to do the crank seal. Initially I had no problems, but very quickly the noise started. Thinking it was the gearbox, I pulled it out and took it to bits. I had neglected to re-shim the input shaft the first time around, so assuming this was the problem have now shimmed it properly as per Peugeot documentation. I've also put new bearings on the input shaft just for good measure, although nothing looked worn.

To my disappointment the noise is exactly the same. Now I'm wondering if it could be a clutch or bearing issue?

If I can get this thing fixed it's otherwise ready to take out for a drive

[demag]

Release bearing?

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[demag]

Just a thought is the clutch plate the right way round and was it a new clutch assy?

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[evilally]

It's a new Valeo clutch kit. Would it be possible for the car to have drive with the friction plate the wrong way round? Would be brilliant if that's all it is!

[ekjdm14]

What's the end float like on the crankshaft? only other thing I could think of is if something (crank sensor maybe?) was very slightly catching on the ring gear with the clutch released, but the end float allows it to be pushed clear when the pedal was pressed...

Hard to tell from a video admittedly, but to my mind it did sound more like something grinding against the flywheel than something internal to the 'box.

[evilally]

Good suggestions, I will check the sensor. I asked a specialist who also said it did not sound like a gearbox issue. My plan tonight is to remove the box and take a closer look at the clutch (and sensor). Something I might try is fitting a spare bellhousing I have and run the engine to see if it still makes the noise without the gearbox.

[flying clutchman]

That doesn't sound like a gearbox noise.It's definitely the noise of something static touching something rotating. My top picks would be: clutch cover fingers touching centre plate (probably cos centre plate is wrong way round), clutch plate centre boss fouling end of gearbox bearing sleeve, fork fouling clutch cover, cranckshaft end float allowing flywheel to push against backing plate. Look for any fresh wear marks anywhere around clutch and fitments.

[evilally]

Right, so this looks like the culprit:



You will notice the scrapes along the top of the sleeve, so the pressure plate fingers are catching by the looks. Added to that the noise stops when the clutch is depressed and the fingers clear the sleeve. So why would this be happening? Sleeve and shaft look straight? Nothing looked out of the ordinary when I removed the clutch.

[flying clutchman]

I'm afraid I misunderstood your symptoms. I thought it made the noise with the clutch down not up. The wear patterns on the sleeve are look normal, these sleeves wear very quickly and to make that noise it would have been chopped in half by now. The noise stops when you push the clutch because the shaft stops turning. Clutch-wise the only thing would be if the boss on the centre plate was too deep and it's just touching the end of the sleeve. Check the boss on the centre plate for shiny wear. Other than that it's back to the gearbox and strip down the mainshaft

[ekjdm14]

I think the lengthwise scrapes on the sleeve are a "red herring" in that the pressure plate fingers shouldn't get that far up the sleeve to start with, plus the scrapes wouldn't just be "up & down" while the thing was rotating against it. I think those marks are simply where the release bearing has got some grease off the input shaft splines on assembly.

EDIT- actually, can't be pressure plate fingers on guide tube, as you can hear the noise slowing down gradually when the clutch is pressed. it has to be something "backward" in the driveline from this I.E. driven plate/input shaft, as these slow to a stop when the clutch is pressed.

I suppose logically, since the likelihood of a repeated error before/after second gearbox rebuild is smaller, I would look to the other variable between successful test & where we are now. Namely the flywheel, clutch assembly and their respective mountings. Also maybe double check there's no dowels in either block/bellhousing that are damaged/holding the two apart slightly at one point.

EDIT- the clutchman makes a very good point about the driven plate catching on the end of the tube, check that too. Starting to think it may be something more now though

[Gibbo2286]

The parts that are in motion when in neutral and the clutch pedal up are the first motion (primary) shaft and the layshaft so that's where I would be looking, are there any 'too long' screws in through the casing in that region.

Also a very close look at the tube the release bearing runs on, I've seen the forging cracked but not completely broken around where the tube bit meets the flange and moving, touching the splines on the shaft.

[evilally]

Thanks for the suggestions so far! No sign of any fouling of the clutch plate boss. I've started taking the box to bits again but have stopped for the night, more tomorrow!

[Paul-R]

I am full of admiration for your tenacity, energy and refusal to let the gearbox in-and-out shenanigans get you down.

I am exhausted just reading your posts.

[evilally]

Thanks Paul, believe me I'm incredibly frustrated. Otherwise it is running perfectly and would have been ready about 3 weeks ago.

[ekjdm14]

I am full of admiration for your tenacity, energy and refusal to let the gearbox in-and-out shenanigans get you down.

I am exhausted just reading your posts.

Agree, it must be bloody annoying to have this sort of issue. And to have it repeatedly too has got to be a kicker (and I have to say I'm surprised, as it really didn't sound like a gearbox internal noise from the video) but once it's sorted finally the first drive will be all the sweeter. Maybe it's just keeping itself indoors till summer gets it's act together too, at least you're not missing much weather wise.