Total power failure

[lazza]

HI Guys

Yes, I had to call the rescue vehicle for only the second time in my 8 or 9 years with the Xantia . Just a couple of miles from home but didnt want to even try to restart in case it made the problem worse.

I basically lost all power in 4th gear coming off a motorway, there was a bit of black smoke, but no strange noises or any signs beforehand. No oil leaks or anything that seems odd looking at the engine under the bonnet. The STOP lights came on whilst still moving, but cant be sure if they came on immediately i lost power or a bit later before stopping.

My thoughts are:

- Timing belt failure- but I understand that this would be accompanied by horrible noises.
- Piston failure- however I also understand that this would be accompanies by strange noises and juddering.
- Fuel pump failure- recent mornings air seems to have been getting into the system meaning I had to use the hand primer pump to get it going.

Any suggestions on what it could be much appreciated, before I start taking things apart

Cheers
Lazza

[GiveMeABreak]

Is the fuel pump weakening? Over 20 years old if on the original one - sounds like fuel starvation.

[CitroJim]

Check the timing belt Larry and then go for a restart... Yes, if it was timing belt there would have been some noise certainly and a piston failure would have caused lots of smoke...

I'm wondering if the axillary belt has failed and got tangled up in the cambelt and caused it to jump a tooth or three. That would account for all symptoms possibly, including the stop light..

As I say, check the timing belt and timing and then go for a restart and see what happens...

[lazza]

Err i seem to have a slight camshaft issue

https://goo.gl/photos/eJXMVunVeYkNdn7GA

https://goo.gl/photos/sCaSdybxXCgeDG7U9






https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipO ... 9PBWvp1NFW
https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipN ... 1EmIMSHsJJ


I found the timing belt snapped and thought, ah ok, that explains it. However, I noticed the camshaft pulley a bit skew- so I took off the rocker cover. Camshaft split in half along with two of its bearings/supports! To be honest, i'd always seen the camshaft pulley slightly off being true- and I guess with time it has eventually caused the shaft to sheer.

I'm wondering if it's worth trying to fix, or if there will be significant valve and piston damage too. It's very strange because I heard no grinding or rattling noises at any time before, or during the failure. There were no symptoms or telling signs. So the only consolation is I dont think I can blame myself for missing it.

Any suggestions.... apart from get a new car??

Thanks all
Larry

ps let me know which links to the photos works, the first two, second two or third two...?

[Paul-R]

First pair and second pair OK. The third pair give a 404 error message.

[Hell Razor5543]

OUCH!

[GiveMeABreak]

err... definitely not the fuel pump then. Surprised it didn't make a racket looking at the damage!

[myglaren]

Last two give a 404 error

[Old-Guy]

I can say from personal experience that if the cam belt jumps only one tooth, you will hear the sound of at least one piston just touching a valve at TDC, this sounds like a gone big-end! Horrendous noise. No way you're not going to hear it!

If the belt snaps, you'd at least hear a series of bangs as pistons meet valves until the engine stops.

If the camshaft snapped first, the separated length of shaft would stop immediately with the valves closed (probably no collisions); the camshaft sheared at the centre bearing where the cap has broken, so the valve springs forced the valves closed and the camshaft upwards, seizing the camshaft in the front bearing and snapping the belt. This sequence of events seems to best fit what you experienced and the damage visible in the photos.

I believe that the camshaft bearings are line-bored once the caps have been fitted, so it's not good practise to swap them, and I think you'll find that the half-bearings in the head are scored if not chewed. I'd say you need a replacement head it, but there may well be no significant damage below the head joint (to pistons, or the bottom end).

Take the head off (SLACK the head bolts in the prescribed sequence, 2 flats at a time). If any piston crowns show signs of contacting a valve, I'd take off the sump - not as simple as you might expect - and check the big end bearings for those pistons. If any big end bearing shells are damaged, check the mains too. If shells are slightly damaged but the crank journals are good, you'll probably get away with just fitting new shells.

It won't cost you anything except time to explore the extent of the damage before you decide what to do.

Best of luck with it.

[mickeymoon]

I think with that amount of damage and potential ballachery, I'd be looking for a new engine that runs well, then fit it - after changing all belts, pulleys and waterpump before installation.



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[CitroJim]

Oh dear Larry

Old-Guy has covered most of the subject but there's unlikely to be any piston damage as they hit the valves straight up as the valves are at 90 degrees to the piston crowns and this is why the cam breaks...

Yes, the cam bearing are line-bored and non-interchangeable... The head is now basically scrap as finding a set of bearing caps that might fit is akin to finding a lettuce in the UK at the moment... You could try but the caps are not available as spares and you'd need to raid a load of scrap heads to find some. You'd may as well just source a decent head.

So, I agree, either get another good head or another good engine... The head is the easier option and a scrapyard should provide as any 1.9TD head will do.

Have any replacement head checked and skimmed before fitting and check the valve clearances...

This underlines just how critical it is to replace 1.9TD cambelts at regular intervals and well before the 'book' mileage...

If the rest of the car is good then the job of sorting out this issue is well justified.

Let us know how it goes...

[Old-Guy]

Bad choice of analogy Jim! Lidl had a choice of Romaine, Iceberg or Little Gem yesterday.
Seriously, your experience of rebuilding XUDs is much more extensive than mine.
IMHO, all belts need changing every 60,000 or 6 years regardless of the manufacturer's service schedule.

Larry, fitting a replacement engine is much more work than just the head, especially if you are working on your own or don't have a fully-equipped workshop. Although I have had the head off our Xantia twice in the last 7 years, a year ago I gave the job of changing the clutch to a local Indy simply because there's too much heavy lifting involved, needing the proper kit and two experienced blokes.

Any replacement engine will be 18+ years-old and thus a very old pig in a poke - you'll have no idea what state it's in and you'll have to do much of the same work (belts, water-pump), replacing the head you'll know:-
a) the history of the base engine, and
b) that the part of the engine (head) most likely to give trouble has been overhauled.

I'd only take off the sump if what I saw or had heard led me to think that there might be bottom end damage. The XUD9 engine is an incredibly robust old-school diesel engine, all steel or cast iron below the head. Despite the belt jumping one tooth, and the engine sounding as though one big end was well-gone (I know what that sounds like from lots of engines in the past), the bottom end was perfect (at 120,000!) and I mean perfect: no detectable wear on any c/s journal or bearing shell just nicely run-in, good for at least another 250,000 miles. The horrendous noise was all the clearances stacking up to allow the no.1 piston crown to lightly kiss the inlet valve as it closed. With the benefit of hind-sight, I could have simply re-timed the engine (all the necessary tools in the car) and resumed our journey across France with only the loss of a day.

[lazza]

Thanks everyone for the replies, much appreciated in my hour sorrow - Ok, so it looks like just getting a new camshaft and replacement bearings is out of the question. Have to see how much a head from the scrappies will cost me. Confirming what I had supposed, since there were no notable dying noises associated with the failure, I can probably assume the rest of the engine is ok.

What's line-boring? Is every camshaft different?

[CitroJim]

What's line-boring? Is every camshaft different?

No, all the camshafts are the same but try to get a head with a cam already fitted as then you may not have to adjust the valve clearances... They are adjusted by shims so if you can avoid that it will be good...

If you get a non-turbo head - unlikely but possible - be aware the cams are different between the turbo and non-turbo. Ditto if the head came from a 1.8...

Ensure the head you get is NOT from a vehicle that's suffered serious overheating as it can anneal the head and render it useless. Also have any head checked for warping and have it lightly skimmed in any case.

Line-boring is a method of cutting the bearing journals for the camshaft. Basically, the cam journals in both the head and their caps are left slightly undersized and an boring bar simultaneously opens them up to their final dimensions. A boring bar is basically like a big reamer. It bores them true to the plane of the head, very accurately parallel and very accurately.

[myglaren]