Peug.Partner 1,9D DW8 WJY running REALLY rough.

[Torben]

Hello, my first post but here goes:
Partner 2002, 198.000 km on it.
Symptoms: Starts and runs Excellent for 30-60 seconds, then runs really rough and SMOKES and jutters/jerks. Really low power when cold, but when warm, sort of the same power as before, but SMOKES and jerks. When warm, engine runs bad from the second its started.
No engine light since i replaced TDC sensor.

It started with an exploding clutch, that exploded under high load (4-5000 revs), and tok the flywheel and TDC sensor/cranksensor.
The engine was towed home with the engine iddling with no signal from TDC sensor, with loads of smoke as a result off course. Engine ran 45-60 min that way.

I took engine out, changed:
timingbelt, waterpump, tensioner.
used identical flywheel with the 2 taps on, for the sensor to read. 6 new bolts too.
TDC sensor, used but gives rev signal as i can see it iddles at 900.
New/used air meter.
New clutch, relase bearing, gear change fork, you name it.
New seal around in engine, for good measure.
Diesel filter new and filter house cleaned. No bubbles in fuel.
"New" plastic part on intake, as a mechanic broke one of the vacuum connecters under the egr valve. I had i spare engine i took it from, but not sure if its working. Is the butterfly valve in intake supposed to be fully open at ALL time? its not moving at all, fully open position.
Same old aircleaner, but not that old.

Things ive measured/observed:
Compression test OK, all 4 between 32-36 bar, max diff is 5 bar, so thats ok. Wet test gave a little higher reading as you`ll expect.

Took out all injectors and took them completely appart, and cleaned them gently with brakecleaner. Put them together with 45 nM, i think thats not too bad. It didnt change a thing, maybe it even helped a bit, not sure. They sort of looked ok, of course sooty/black debries on, but all 7-8 injectors i have no visible diff. in appearance to an hobby mechanic like me

Ohm`ed the needle lift sensor: 96 ohm, should be around 100 so i thinks its ok?

Tried to replace 3 injectors with 3 i had in the spare engine, didnt do anything good. Looked identical, but not same partnumbers. The engine they where pulled out of is the non ECU engine i think, no needle lift sensor. The needleliftsensor injector i left in its spot. That did not help, maybe iddle were even rougher. But sort of the same.

A mechanic took diagnosis, only found a error in airflow meter, wich i replaced. He saw the value on air intake valve /throttle(not sure of the translation of this part) was 23 % all the time, no matter throttle/gas pedal position.

The advance solenoid valve clicks away when i preheat engine, appr. 5 seconds mayby. Sounds "normal" Could it still be this valve that is gone/defect/seized?

No diff when i take out the needle lift sensor from the injector, not even a engine light. is that normal?

The EGR valve have sort of 2 vacuum hoses, can they be put on wrong? Didnt mark them when i pulled them, but no diff. when i switch them . They come from a vacuum box i think, how does one know they are in the right place?

The weird thing is that it starts so easy and runs fine initially, but then jerks and SMOKE grey`ish/maybe blue sometimes, maybe white after a while, the whole engine almost jumps out the engine bay, the exhaust have been shaken to pieces already, but the condition is rubbish anyway, "new" one all ready purchased.

Am stuck right now, been using far too much time and money on new parts/clutch/service parts. A suspected dead clutch and TDC sensor turned out to be something else more complicated.

Is my fuel pump dead or maybe advance solenoid? Engine is sound i think, but something with the fuel supply or controll of this is very wrong, at least i think it is mistiming fuel or overfueling...

Have scheduled diagnosis at Peugeut dealership, but they says its difficult to measure anyting when there is no engine light on. I thought they where supposed to be able to measure live data, so they can see if pump is timing up to ECU values?! is going to pay 150-200 £ per hour, so i CANT afford say 5-7 hours on an un sure conclusion like:
" it looks like your pump is dead, but we dont know for sure before we change it..... or we found nothing out of order, so the engine is fine..." if you understand.

What to do, any wise words are much appreciated:) Anything i`ve missed?
Not feeling like playing parts bingo anymore.
Could post a video of the engine running and smoking if there is any interest in seing that:)
Ps. even my "new" radiator is leaking in hose connector, right now i feel REALLY lucky

[ekjdm14]

A video would be good, it does seem strange that it runs OK for a minute when started from cold... My thoughts would be either a timing issue (have you double checked both pump and camshaft timing, as I note you changed the belt so would be worth double/triple checking?)

Also I think there could be a problem with the throttle flap/doseur but don't have any experience with how it'd affect running.

[Torben]

Ok:) video upload in progress, will post asap.
Hm, did 3 check of timingbelt before i inserted engine, but didn`t do it after. Since compression is good on all cylinders and engine starts as easy as usual, at least i think the timing is on spot. I rotated the engine
Yes, indeed its weird it starts that easy but runs like a bag of(u know what...)
Is actually considering another Van, with 1,6 or 2,0 HDI, off topic which is "best"/least troublesome of theese?
Ps. sorry for my english, i dont even speak "my own" language very well.

[Torben]

Did a video today, approx. 32 degr. F.
Sorry for the video quality.
The engine actually dies only a few seconds after i stopped filming.
Smoke is worse than an old fishing vessel.

[ekjdm14]

"feels" to me like the injection timing is retarded & definitely worth another look at the pump timing. Just sounds a bit quiet and lethargic like it's getting fuel when the piston is already on the downstroke. Obviously not enough to stop it running, but as the engine warms and the cold start backs down it gets progressively worse.

That's what I'd personally look into first, make sure the pump gear isn't a tooth or 2 off (or even for the sake of experimentation, slacken the bolts and advance the pump a bit to see what effect it has on running)

As far as newer vehicles, I'd choose the 8 valve 2.0 over the 1.6 HDi based on peoples experiences of turbo failures etc. Having said that, I'd stick with a DW8 or XUD over common-rail engines if I had the choice.

[Torben]

Thanks for thoughts on my problem:)
I will look into the timing belt, and try see if it Helps. Will be gone next week on jobb, but will give a follow up when i've checked timing belt!
Actually its not that 'silent' running:) i thinks it sounds loud, but maybe its the video sound.

Another observation i did during a short test drive, it smokes downhill, when im engine braking. Like its still gets fuel, when its not supposed to get it. Never seen it smoke during engine brake.
Weird engine.
Have had few problems with it during the last 4-5 yrs i've owned it. But did spend too much on it last year: new suspension in front, new complete brakes in front(caliper, brakeline etc) new complete clutch.

[Peter.N.]

It sounds and looks as though its missing on at least one cylinder, likely as suggested caused by incorrect pump timing. It does sound and look as though its running retarded although that usually makes them difficult to start, it sounds almost as though the timing is 'floating'. I would double check the functioning of the the TDC sensor especially as it has been replaced, make sure the connector is good and measure the resistance across it. I don't know what it should be but I sure someone else will, I suspect it would a few hundred ohms but if it reads open circuit you will know something is wrong.

Peter

[Pug_XUD_KeenAmateur]

The weird thing is that it starts so easy and runs fine initially, but then jerks and SMOKE grey`ish.... Is my fuel pump dead

I thought my fuel pump was dead a few months back and then ran it temporarily from a can; it ran just fine from the can and I ultimately found a chaffed fuel hose causing air to get into the system. Invest in a metre or two of fuel pipe (I paid about £5 for 2metres of 8mm Inner Diameter) and give it a try.

Its quick and cheap to try and could explain why its running fine initially while the cold start device is 'on'.

My post "XUD Missing" from about September 2016 details the whole sorry saga.

NB: I didn't bother with a 'return' pipe to the can, so it'll drain a gallon of fuel surprisingly quickly (about 10 mins), most of that going back to the fuel tank. I also had grey smoke, lots of it.

[Torben]

It sounds and looks as though its missing on at least one cylinder, likely as suggested caused by incorrect pump timing. It does sound and look as though its running retarded although that usually makes them difficult to start, it sounds almost as though the timing is 'floating'. I would double check the functioning of the the TDC sensor especially as it has been replaced, make sure the connector is good and measure the resistance across it. I don't know what it should be but I sure someone else will, I suspect it would a few hundred ohms but if it reads open circuit you will know something is wrong.

Peter

I'll definitly take a check on timing belt, probably This friday. At work away from home next few days.
I'll look into TDC sensor too, yes i think the iddle sounds 'floating' too, like its given bad signals somewhere.
Just cancelled mechanic appointment. Will probably be scrapped If i not dagnose it myself. Peugeot didnt sound too optimistic when i spoke with them. (Due to no engine light and whatever)

[Torben]

The weird thing is that it starts so easy and runs fine initially, but then jerks and SMOKE grey`ish.... Is my fuel pump dead

I thought my fuel pump was dead a few months back and then ran it temporarily from a can; it ran just fine from the can and I ultimately found a chaffed fuel hose causing air to get into the system. Invest in a metre or two of fuel pipe (I paid about £5 for 2metres of 8mm Inner Diameter) and give it a try.

Its quick and cheap to try and could explain why its running fine initially while the cold start device is 'on'.

My post "XUD Missing" from about September 2016 details the whole sorry saga.

NB: I didn't bother with a 'return' pipe to the can, so it'll drain a gallon of fuel surprisingly quickly (about 10 mins), most of that going back to the fuel tank. I also had grey smoke, lots of it.

I'v had same suspicion, but cant see any airbubbles in clear supply hoses at any time. Did change diesel filter and tripple check for bad hoses near filter House and pump, didnt see any.
Sounds like i probably should try the Jerrycan trick and see what happens.
Still, pretty tirred of working on ma' old car that still needs a lot of Work even after engine is running: needs new exhaust, and used radiator leaking from hose connection, which i JUST installed, scrapper didnt have the correct replacement hose so swapped another new radiator to the 3. Radiator i've had on the car recently. I'll update after next time im under the car.

[ekjdm14]

New exhaust & radiator/hose fix, that's not a lot of work (in time or in money) in the big scheme of things, if you can get this fuel/timing issue sorted then it's certainly worth finishing the rest of the work even if you sold the car afterwards. You could spend a lot more buying a replacement & the "new" car would still be an unknown and possibly need work in the near future.

[Torben]

Thats true:)

[artdjones]

This could be caused by the timing solenoid on the pump being broken, but it would be worth checking the circuits that control the timing first.If you look at the engine ECU you will see two plugs on top one black and one brown.The checks are done from the black one.The first one to check is the needle lift sensor.Follow the sensor wire back to its two pin connector and unplug the connector.Then check continuity from terminal one of that connector to terminal J2 on the ECU plug.Then check continuity from terminal 2 to terminal K3 on the ECU plug.If these choout ok then the wiring to the needle lift sensor is ok.
To check the timing solenoid wiring you need to unplug the two pin black connector on the side of the fuel pump.You can see it at the start of your video.You need continuity here from terminal 2 to terminal F4 on the ECU plug.Finally check you have 12 volts at terminal one of the solenoid connector with ignition on.
I have known these wires break internally, especially the ones from the needle lift sensor.
If all the wiring checks out ok it could be the timing solenoid.Maybe you could get hold of a used one to check.

[Torben]

This could be caused by the timing solenoid on the pump being broken, but it would be worth checking the circuits that control the timing first.If you look at the engine ECU you will see two plugs on top one black and one brown.The checks are done from the black one.The first one to check is the needle lift sensor.Follow the sensor wire back to its two pin connector and unplug the connector.Then check continuity from terminal one of that connector to terminal J2 on the ECU plug.Then check continuity from terminal 2 to terminal K3 on the ECU plug.If these choout ok then the wiring to the needle lift sensor is ok.
To check the timing solenoid wiring you need to unplug the two pin black connector on the side of the fuel pump.You can see it at the start of your video.You need continuity here from terminal 2 to terminal F4 on the ECU plug.Finally check you have 12 volts at terminal one of the solenoid connector with ignition on.
I have known these wires break internally, especially the ones from the needle lift sensor.
If all the wiring checks out ok it could be the timing solenoid.Maybe you could get hold of a used one to check.

Thanks.
It sounds like i should ask a more competent person to get those checks done, but that should be no problem. Othervise i have i mulitimeter and two Hands.
I actually think this Advance solenoid valve is gone/dead, i've heard they die some times. I can probably source a used one pretty easy, i know a real good scrapper dude, he has lots of old peugeot just sitting there.
I'll test timing belt and ecu continuity someday soon.

[Torben]

Why did nobody Tell me it is a really Big job to check timing. All motor mounts must be loosen to check it. No access at all.
I'll check ecu connections instead. Dont have enough spirit to take the engine halfway out today. Sorry:) and i expect the belt to be 100% at point. Maybe i'll just pull the plast covers of with extreme force, then i'll deal with it later IF the car survives. Thats an alternativ.