ML5T Gearbox swap.

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xsaras4ever
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ML5T Gearbox swap.

Post by xsaras4ever »

Hello to all from Bretagne.

We have long standing problems with the gearbox on our 1.9td Boxer van .

Its a ML5T gearbox and 2nd gear is almost gone possibly due to worn baulk-ring causing the synchro to crash.

Normally these gearboxes fetch 400euros plus here in France but today a 1.9d Boxer has come onto our radar at a very attractive price.

When we put its VIN into Service box it shows the ML5T gearbox too.

Both Vans are XUD9.

Our question is : will it fit (specifically the length and thickness of the gearbox shaft to slot into the crank) as if memory serves us correctly, the gearbox from a 1.9td car is not the same as a 1.9d car ?
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CitroJim
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Re: ML5T Gearbox swap.

Post by CitroJim »

xsaras4ever wrote: Our question is : will it fit (specifically the length and thickness of the gearbox shaft to slot into the crank) as if memory serves us correctly, the gearbox from a 1.9td car is not the same as a 1.9d car ?
If the clutches are the same then they will, almost certainly. If not, you can use the good one as a parts donor for the bad one.. The ML5 is a relatively easy 'box to strip and overhaul.

The difference in the D and TD in the XUD-engined cars with the BE3 gearbox is they use different clutches, the TD being a 'pull' type and the D a 'push' type...

I don't believe this changes the dimensions of the input shaft though but I may be wrong...
Jim

Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
xsaras4ever
(Donor 2016)
Posts: 391
Joined: 07 Aug 2013, 13:43
Location: Bretagne,France
My Cars: Peugeot 205 TD
Citroen Jumper 2.5D
Peugeot 406 Estate 2.0 Hdi
Citroen Saxo Ph2 1.1
Audi A3 1.9D
Pembleton 3 Wheeler
1959 Kelsey GT
1957 Fordson Power Major Tractor
1964 Nuffield 4/60 Tractor
1967 Nuffield 10/60 Tractor
1963 Allis Chalmers ED40 Tractor
1984 JCB 3CX
x 39

Re: ML5T Gearbox swap.

Post by xsaras4ever »

Thanks Jim , we will look at the clutches on Servicebox.
Jumper 2.5d
406 Phase 2 Estate, Hdi
Fiat 500 (2009)
1997 Audi A3 tdi
Peugeot 205 td
Fordson Major Tractor
Nuffield 460 tractor
JCB 3cx
xsaras4ever
(Donor 2016)
Posts: 391
Joined: 07 Aug 2013, 13:43
Location: Bretagne,France
My Cars: Peugeot 205 TD
Citroen Jumper 2.5D
Peugeot 406 Estate 2.0 Hdi
Citroen Saxo Ph2 1.1
Audi A3 1.9D
Pembleton 3 Wheeler
1959 Kelsey GT
1957 Fordson Power Major Tractor
1964 Nuffield 4/60 Tractor
1967 Nuffield 10/60 Tractor
1963 Allis Chalmers ED40 Tractor
1984 JCB 3CX
x 39

Re: ML5T Gearbox swap.

Post by xsaras4ever »

Hello Jim , checked the clutches on ServiceBox and they are the same. The gear ratios and differential are different though more than likely because the van is a 1.9d and only 68bhp as opposed to the 92bhp of our van.

Anyway, we went ahead and bought it and as is usual in these matters it is in as good if not better condition than our van so now the dilema is whether to break it or save it.

We have had this dilema many times in the past, as we are sure most of the addicts here have had too.

It actually seems easier to repair it and sell it rather than to break it............then put the profit back into our own van.
Jumper 2.5d
406 Phase 2 Estate, Hdi
Fiat 500 (2009)
1997 Audi A3 tdi
Peugeot 205 td
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Re: ML5T Gearbox swap.

Post by CitroJim »

xsaras4ever wrote: Anyway, we went ahead and bought it and as is usual in these matters it is in as good if not better condition than our van so now the dilema is whether to break it or save it.
Always a dilemma! Save it I say... And then keep it for yourself ;) Chances are the work needed is a lot less (and cheaper) than swapping gearboxes and the concomitant work needed such as anew clutch, oil and seals.

The gear ratios between the D and TD will be very different and you may find the D ratios don't suit the TD at all well...

Let us know how it all goes. Some pictures would be good too ;)
Jim

Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
xsaras4ever
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Posts: 391
Joined: 07 Aug 2013, 13:43
Location: Bretagne,France
My Cars: Peugeot 205 TD
Citroen Jumper 2.5D
Peugeot 406 Estate 2.0 Hdi
Citroen Saxo Ph2 1.1
Audi A3 1.9D
Pembleton 3 Wheeler
1959 Kelsey GT
1957 Fordson Power Major Tractor
1964 Nuffield 4/60 Tractor
1967 Nuffield 10/60 Tractor
1963 Allis Chalmers ED40 Tractor
1984 JCB 3CX
x 39

Re: ML5T Gearbox swap.

Post by xsaras4ever »

Thanks Jim. Spotted a zx for 100euros today - a great donor.

Don't know if you remember, but we boxerized a xantia engine for our van - changed sump, oil pickup, flywheel etc and then had the protracted puzzle of why we had no vacuum at the servo (we had to drill the brass blanking plug). So boxerizing a zx engine is ground we have covered before.
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Re: ML5T Gearbox swap.

Post by Paul-R »

Boxerising? Please explain.
As I get older I think a lot about the hereafter - I go into a room and then wonder what I'm here after.

Inside every old person is a young person wondering what the hell happened.

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xsaras4ever
(Donor 2016)
Posts: 391
Joined: 07 Aug 2013, 13:43
Location: Bretagne,France
My Cars: Peugeot 205 TD
Citroen Jumper 2.5D
Peugeot 406 Estate 2.0 Hdi
Citroen Saxo Ph2 1.1
Audi A3 1.9D
Pembleton 3 Wheeler
1959 Kelsey GT
1957 Fordson Power Major Tractor
1964 Nuffield 4/60 Tractor
1967 Nuffield 10/60 Tractor
1963 Allis Chalmers ED40 Tractor
1984 JCB 3CX
x 39

Re: ML5T Gearbox swap.

Post by xsaras4ever »

In the cars, the engines sit at a backwards tilt, whereas in the vans they are more or less upright.

If you put a car engine into a van, it will very quickly get ruined as it will suffer from oil-starvation, because the sumps are different, as is the oil pickup pipe in the sump.

Also , in the vans the flywheel is a much bigger affair, as is the pressure plate and clutch disc..

So Boxerizing, or Relaying or whatever - basically adapting a PSA car engine to go into a PSA van.
Jumper 2.5d
406 Phase 2 Estate, Hdi
Fiat 500 (2009)
1997 Audi A3 tdi
Peugeot 205 td
Fordson Major Tractor
Nuffield 460 tractor
JCB 3cx
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Re: ML5T Gearbox swap.

Post by Paul-R »

Ah, I see. It's referencing the van name.

Whenever I see "boxer" and "engine" I immediately think of horizontally opposed pistons as in the original Beetle and 70s/80s Mitsubishi 4wd.
As I get older I think a lot about the hereafter - I go into a room and then wonder what I'm here after.

Inside every old person is a young person wondering what the hell happened.

"Trying is the first step towards failure" ~ Homer J Simpson​
xsaras4ever
(Donor 2016)
Posts: 391
Joined: 07 Aug 2013, 13:43
Location: Bretagne,France
My Cars: Peugeot 205 TD
Citroen Jumper 2.5D
Peugeot 406 Estate 2.0 Hdi
Citroen Saxo Ph2 1.1
Audi A3 1.9D
Pembleton 3 Wheeler
1959 Kelsey GT
1957 Fordson Power Major Tractor
1964 Nuffield 4/60 Tractor
1967 Nuffield 10/60 Tractor
1963 Allis Chalmers ED40 Tractor
1984 JCB 3CX
x 39

Re: ML5T Gearbox swap.

Post by xsaras4ever »

Hi Paul , crazy as we certainly are..............we haven't yet cut up 2 PSA engines and welded them back together in a flat format...............
Jumper 2.5d
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Re: ML5T Gearbox swap.

Post by Old-Guy »

xsaras4ever wrote:Hi Paul , crazy as we certainly are..............we haven't yet cut up 2 PSA engines and welded them back together in a flat format...............
Wouldn't that be 'Subaruing'? (Water-cooled as opposed to air-cooled).
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Re: ML5T Gearbox swap.

Post by Paul-R »

Subaru - that's what I meant.
xsaras4ever wrote:Hi Paul , crazy as we certainly are..............we haven't yet cut up 2 PSA engines and welded them back together in a flat format...............
Now there's a project to savour.
As I get older I think a lot about the hereafter - I go into a room and then wonder what I'm here after.

Inside every old person is a young person wondering what the hell happened.

"Trying is the first step towards failure" ~ Homer J Simpson​
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Re: ML5T Gearbox swap.

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

Nah, what Team WFA should try is to get hold of 3 V6 engines, and then try and make a Deltic engine configuration!
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Re: ML5T Gearbox swap.

Post by myglaren »

Old-Guy wrote:
xsaras4ever wrote:Hi Paul , crazy as we certainly are..............we haven't yet cut up 2 PSA engines and welded them back together in a flat format...............
Wouldn't that be 'Subaruing'? (Water-cooled as opposed to air-cooled).
Or "Lancia-ing" :)
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Re: ML5T Gearbox swap.

Post by Old-Guy »

On a more serious note; doing some research on PSA diesels, I noticed that the 21C van engines have lower power outputs with fixed geometry turbos, presumably in the interests of better reliability when thrashed on a daily basis. But then anyone going to the trouble of Boxerising a car diesel probably isn't going to drive flat-to-the-floor.
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1995 Xantia Estate SX 1.9TD in Vert Vega "The Green Lady" - after 11 years now owned by XanTom
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