5th Gear on Citroen Xsara 2.0hdi 2003 (not picasso)
Moderator: RichardW
5th Gear on Citroen Xsara 2.0hdi 2003 (not picasso)
Hi All,
I really hope you can help, having read the forums, I now have a clearer idea what may be the cause of my issue, but need some verification that this is the case.
My 2003 Xsara has been jumping out of 5th gear for a couple of weeks and has been progressivly getting worse until it will no longer stay in 5th gear. I have been following some of the other posts and took the end cover to the gear box off to check if the end nut has come off which it hasn't.
Having a good look around under the car I have noticed alot of oil around where the driveshafts enter the gearbox which would seem to indidcate the oil seals have gone, which in turn would reduce the oil level in the gearbox and give me fith gear trouble. Is this possible?
On taking off the end of the gear box, I noticed some play in the end. (sorry don't know what all the bits are called) I have poseted a video to youtube here:
I wonder if you could possibly have a look and let me know if this is how it should be before I but it back together.
Thanks for your help.
I really hope you can help, having read the forums, I now have a clearer idea what may be the cause of my issue, but need some verification that this is the case.
My 2003 Xsara has been jumping out of 5th gear for a couple of weeks and has been progressivly getting worse until it will no longer stay in 5th gear. I have been following some of the other posts and took the end cover to the gear box off to check if the end nut has come off which it hasn't.
Having a good look around under the car I have noticed alot of oil around where the driveshafts enter the gearbox which would seem to indidcate the oil seals have gone, which in turn would reduce the oil level in the gearbox and give me fith gear trouble. Is this possible?
On taking off the end of the gear box, I noticed some play in the end. (sorry don't know what all the bits are called) I have poseted a video to youtube here:
I wonder if you could possibly have a look and let me know if this is how it should be before I but it back together.
Thanks for your help.
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Re: 5th Gear on Citroen Xsara 2.0hdi 2003 (not picasso)
Is the gear actually fully engaging?
I'm not sure about your model but the C5s with a similar set up use cables from the lever to the box and the outer cables can become un-crimped allowing them to slide in and out of position therefore not putting it properly into gear.
I'm not sure about your model but the C5s with a similar set up use cables from the lever to the box and the outer cables can become un-crimped allowing them to slide in and out of position therefore not putting it properly into gear.
Man is, by nature, a lazy beast, he does not need twice encouraging to do nothing.
Re: 5th Gear on Citroen Xsara 2.0hdi 2003 (not picasso)
Thanks for the reply,
The gear will currently go in and then crunch and fly back out again.
With the engine off the gear will slide into position quite happliy.
I have checked the linkage and there is slight play in them, but not a great deal.
Did you manage to look at the video, do you think this is normal?
The gear will currently go in and then crunch and fly back out again.
With the engine off the gear will slide into position quite happliy.
I have checked the linkage and there is slight play in them, but not a great deal.
Did you manage to look at the video, do you think this is normal?
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Re: 5th Gear on Citroen Xsara 2.0hdi 2003 (not picasso)
Sounds as though the synchro ring and gear are worn, you should be able to change them from the end of the box, I did one on a CX but that was some time ago.
Peter
Peter
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Re: 5th Gear on Citroen Xsara 2.0hdi 2003 (not picasso)
Fifth gear on many boxes sits on the end of the main shafts, and is unsupported on the outer end (i.e. it does not have a supporting bearing on its outboard end). This makes it prone to wear, and jumping out of gear is one symptom. Others are difficulty engaging, and gear-stick vibration.
When driving, you may find you can get it to stay in gear, or run with less vibration, by taking it out of 5th and putting it back in again. This engages a randomly different set of engagement teeth. Doesn't always work.
Your video seems to show slop/wear in the 5th gear cluster. Peter is right, it is fairly straightforward, usually, to simply replace the fifth gear cluster and its mating cog. Some vehicle manufacturers actually offer a parts kit for this operation - Toyota do, I've done the job. You can also ask the parts counter simply to provide you with the bits necessary for the job; they will have done this many times for their own mechanics. Will cost a few bob. Only do it with genuine parts.
First, though, as above, check out the gear shift cables/rods are allowing 5th to be fully engaged. This is a common fault. Also get that box oil level/leak sorted!
You may be lucky, again as Peter says, and find it's only the synchromesh components that are worn. Bit unlikely, looking at your video.
Also, do check that the gear oil you are using is absolutely the correct stuff for your box. The book will specify GL4 or GL5, and you should use the correct one. There can be damage done to non-ferrous items (like the brass synchromesh components) by using the wrong grade. Avoid all gear box oil "additives"; good brand correct gear oil is the best protection.
When driving, you may find you can get it to stay in gear, or run with less vibration, by taking it out of 5th and putting it back in again. This engages a randomly different set of engagement teeth. Doesn't always work.
Your video seems to show slop/wear in the 5th gear cluster. Peter is right, it is fairly straightforward, usually, to simply replace the fifth gear cluster and its mating cog. Some vehicle manufacturers actually offer a parts kit for this operation - Toyota do, I've done the job. You can also ask the parts counter simply to provide you with the bits necessary for the job; they will have done this many times for their own mechanics. Will cost a few bob. Only do it with genuine parts.
First, though, as above, check out the gear shift cables/rods are allowing 5th to be fully engaged. This is a common fault. Also get that box oil level/leak sorted!
You may be lucky, again as Peter says, and find it's only the synchromesh components that are worn. Bit unlikely, looking at your video.
Also, do check that the gear oil you are using is absolutely the correct stuff for your box. The book will specify GL4 or GL5, and you should use the correct one. There can be damage done to non-ferrous items (like the brass synchromesh components) by using the wrong grade. Avoid all gear box oil "additives"; good brand correct gear oil is the best protection.
Chris
Re: 5th Gear on Citroen Xsara 2.0hdi 2003 (not picasso)
Thank you all for your input, hoping you were going to say it's normal, but cant have everything!
Already ordered the oil seal, so will get that sorted and with check for 5th gear cluster service kit with citroen.
Already ordered the oil seal, so will get that sorted and with check for 5th gear cluster service kit with citroen.
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Re: 5th Gear on Citroen Xsara 2.0hdi 2003 (not picasso)
There seems to be plenty of kit suppliers for 5th gears on Ebay, here's an example:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Citroen-Berli ... xyLN9Sjiwe
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Citroen-Berli ... xyLN9Sjiwe
Man is, by nature, a lazy beast, he does not need twice encouraging to do nothing.
Re: 5th Gear on Citroen Xsara 2.0hdi 2003 (not picasso)
Thanks, unfortunatly none of the part numbers match and citroen have quoted £400 for all the individual components.
Going to put the cover back on refill the box and see if that makes a difference. Otherwise may have to weigh up another gear box or get shot of it.
Incidentally, how do I find out the gearbox code?
Going to put the cover back on refill the box and see if that makes a difference. Otherwise may have to weigh up another gear box or get shot of it.
Incidentally, how do I find out the gearbox code?
Re: 5th Gear on Citroen Xsara 2.0hdi 2003 (not picasso)
It's ok, I found the code 20DM07.
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Re: 5th Gear on Citroen Xsara 2.0hdi 2003 (not picasso)
What I always did in the past was to get a scrap gearbox for not to much money and use the bits from that, and advantage is that you know you have everything, and its certainly cheaper than getting the bits new, the last gearbox job I bought new pars for was 2nd gear on a Morris Minor van in about 1970, cost me a fiver!
I can't see your video it wont play for some reason, probably Windows 10 again but if you can see where the wear is you should be able to whip the end off one to check it, normally what happens is the splined teeth on the gear wear away at the sharp end so they are tapered, then when you apply torque it runs down the slope, the synchro ring will probably be worn in a similar way.
Peter
I can't see your video it wont play for some reason, probably Windows 10 again but if you can see where the wear is you should be able to whip the end off one to check it, normally what happens is the splined teeth on the gear wear away at the sharp end so they are tapered, then when you apply torque it runs down the slope, the synchro ring will probably be worn in a similar way.
Peter
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Re: 5th Gear on Citroen Xsara 2.0hdi 2003 (not picasso)
Video is fine for me Richard but here is the link:
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Re: 5th Gear on Citroen Xsara 2.0hdi 2003 (not picasso)
£400 sounds about right for genuine parts; I paid about the same for the Toyota equivalent. Known problem for Toyota, which had been unresolved for years. New parts were both toughened and better tolerances, and the problem has not returned.
Please do check out the control cables/links though. If 5th gear engagement is being "held back" by something out of adjustment, then it will (a) prematurely wear and (b) tend to jump out of gear. You must look at this.
Please do check out the control cables/links though. If 5th gear engagement is being "held back" by something out of adjustment, then it will (a) prematurely wear and (b) tend to jump out of gear. You must look at this.
Chris
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Re: 5th Gear on Citroen Xsara 2.0hdi 2003 (not picasso)
The link worked fine, thanks. you obviously live near the sea.
Peter
Peter
Re: 5th Gear on Citroen Xsara 2.0hdi 2003 (not picasso)
Thank you all for you input.
I have now put the cover back on and drained and refilled the gearbox (Thank you whoever it was on another post that said to refill through the reverse switch, made life alot easier.)
Took it out for a drive (only a short one) the gearbox will now go into 5th gear again, but will jump out after a little while. Obviously needs more work so....
I have formulated a plan. Please let me know if you think this is ok.
1.Replace the Gear Linkage
2.Replace the Gear Box Mount
3.Hope and pray that this fixes it
4.Re-Evaluate my options
Yes Peter, I live abut 10 min walk from the sea.
Thank you all again.
I have now put the cover back on and drained and refilled the gearbox (Thank you whoever it was on another post that said to refill through the reverse switch, made life alot easier.)
Took it out for a drive (only a short one) the gearbox will now go into 5th gear again, but will jump out after a little while. Obviously needs more work so....
I have formulated a plan. Please let me know if you think this is ok.
1.Replace the Gear Linkage
2.Replace the Gear Box Mount
3.Hope and pray that this fixes it
4.Re-Evaluate my options
Yes Peter, I live abut 10 min walk from the sea.
Thank you all again.
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Re: 5th Gear on Citroen Xsara 2.0hdi 2003 (not picasso)
About five miles but there are often seagulls squawking outsidePeter.N. wrote:The link worked fine, thanks. you obviously live near the sea.
Peter