Hi Guys,
I've got all the covers/pulleys off to change the cambelt however I've just spent 45minutes turning the motor over and over and over and over and the datum points just do not at ANY time come close to lining up. Either the crank or camshaft pulley is ALWAYS about 1/4 of a turn out.
What the hell do I do ??? I'm not risking changing the belt without putting the pins through the pulleys (to ensure it doesn't go on a tooth out) however it appears the the motor is already way out of synch. The motor in this car runs particualy well...
I confused, how can the motor run with the bloody crankshaft and camshaft out of alignment ??? How the hell am I going to change the (extremely loose) belt that's on it ??????
HELP !!!!!!
thanks
Shane L.
Xantia cambelt HELP !!!!!!!!
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JohnD
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DoubleChevron
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uhn113x
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DoubleChevron
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RichardW
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Shane,
You did say it was slow-as-slug - maybe the cam timing IS out? 1/8th / 1/2 turn doesn't match up though - should be 1/8th / 1/4 as mentioned above (see my point about maybe not using the right index marks further down?)
Guess you have 2 options:
1. Index mark the belt as is and replace the same.
2. Get the belt off and reset the cam timing to correct.
I remember a while back there was a case of BX GTI that was not running right and it turned out that the camshaft sprocket woofruff key had sheared off and allowed the sprocket to rotate relative to the shaft, so although the index marks lined up the cam shaft was way out. Might be worth taking the cam sprocket off and checking?
The other option I guess is that it is not pinned at all, and just lined up on index marks - assume you are working from Haynes BOL or similar? I'll check tonight maybe.
You did say it was slow-as-slug - maybe the cam timing IS out? 1/8th / 1/2 turn doesn't match up though - should be 1/8th / 1/4 as mentioned above (see my point about maybe not using the right index marks further down?)
Guess you have 2 options:
1. Index mark the belt as is and replace the same.
2. Get the belt off and reset the cam timing to correct.
I remember a while back there was a case of BX GTI that was not running right and it turned out that the camshaft sprocket woofruff key had sheared off and allowed the sprocket to rotate relative to the shaft, so although the index marks lined up the cam shaft was way out. Might be worth taking the cam sprocket off and checking?
The other option I guess is that it is not pinned at all, and just lined up on index marks - assume you are working from Haynes BOL or similar? I'll check tonight maybe.
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NiSk
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Hi Shane - I wonder if you havn't given us a clue in your firat message . . .
- How the hell am I going to change the (extremely loose) belt that's on it
extremely loose? how extremely? can the cam gear be made to move despite the grankgear being held still? Could this be the cause of your discrepancy?
Are the tensioner bearing and idler bearing shot?
//NiSk
- How the hell am I going to change the (extremely loose) belt that's on it
extremely loose? how extremely? can the cam gear be made to move despite the grankgear being held still? Could this be the cause of your discrepancy?
Are the tensioner bearing and idler bearing shot?
//NiSk
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uhn113x
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Hi Shane
Time difference has got us here! I suppose it could have run sort of with camshaft out 1/8 turn, but I agree that if belt was very loose, tensioner and/or water pump are probably knackered.
I do remember reading somewhere about a problem with the key on the crankshaft allowing the oil pump sprocket to come loose - dunno if this is a long key that also locates belt sprocket. May be worth assessing where valves are when camshaft locked, and where pistons are. That may throw some light on what is going on.
Good job our Ds don't have these elastic bands
Off for my tea now
Time difference has got us here! I suppose it could have run sort of with camshaft out 1/8 turn, but I agree that if belt was very loose, tensioner and/or water pump are probably knackered.
I do remember reading somewhere about a problem with the key on the crankshaft allowing the oil pump sprocket to come loose - dunno if this is a long key that also locates belt sprocket. May be worth assessing where valves are when camshaft locked, and where pistons are. That may throw some light on what is going on.
Good job our Ds don't have these elastic bands
Off for my tea now-
AndersDK
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Something is really rotten here Shane [B)][8]
- no matter what - the ref hole pins should go in and lock shafts - without any trouble.
If not - then the timing is definately at wrong - period [8)]
It is indeed possible to fiddle the belt on to make the engine run out of correct timing.
Some ozzie cowboys must have serviced this car at some point - and by sheer luck after endless trials they found a belt position that made the engine turn & run. Probably they were proud to finally knacker this Europeee to run - "they aren't that harsh to make run after all mate !"
The correct cambelt type should have markings that align with the cog's markings - but it's a lot safer just to throw in the lockpins and then fit the belt - no matter markings on the belt. Only the direction arrow on belt and snug fitting on cogs is then to worry about.
If this does not work by a test manually cranking the engine slowly - then something seriously is at wrong - like a cylinder head or cam/cog not suitable for the engine block.
- no matter what - the ref hole pins should go in and lock shafts - without any trouble.
If not - then the timing is definately at wrong - period [8)]
It is indeed possible to fiddle the belt on to make the engine run out of correct timing.
Some ozzie cowboys must have serviced this car at some point - and by sheer luck after endless trials they found a belt position that made the engine turn & run. Probably they were proud to finally knacker this Europeee to run - "they aren't that harsh to make run after all mate !"
The correct cambelt type should have markings that align with the cog's markings - but it's a lot safer just to throw in the lockpins and then fit the belt - no matter markings on the belt. Only the direction arrow on belt and snug fitting on cogs is then to worry about.
If this does not work by a test manually cranking the engine slowly - then something seriously is at wrong - like a cylinder head or cam/cog not suitable for the engine block.
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NiSk
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David W
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DoubleChevron
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Hi Guys,
the car is 'sedate', however the motor pulls strongly and cleanly throughout it's entire rev range, remember my daily driver is a CX GTi Turbo and my wifes is a BX19 gti, the Xantia IS slow after driving these cars. If the camshaft wheel was out I imagine the pistons would have hit the valves before the motor could be a whole cycle out (like it must be).
I'll look at lunchtime, but from memory the crankshaft is at about 5:30 (ie: half way between 5 and 6 oclock) with the camshaft pin lined up.
I'm betting the engine runs perfectly as the motor is 180degree out of phase, so everything lines back up (if that makes sense). The car was looked after by a Citroen specialist in Melbourne before my father purchased it & there's no way they would have put the cambelt on with the motor out like this, I'm betting it's been like this from the factory. (they'd have just done what I've done... ie: WTF is going on here ????? then just swapped the belt by marking the old belt then transferring the marks to the new belt).
I think this is what I'm going to have to do ??? Mark the existing belt in several positions, then transfer these marks to the new belt
I'm sure not happy about any of this though ...
any other ideas ??
seeya,
Shane L.
PS: Why can't anything ever be bloody easy for me ??? Yeah I know, I know, citroens make life 'interesting'.
the car is 'sedate', however the motor pulls strongly and cleanly throughout it's entire rev range, remember my daily driver is a CX GTi Turbo and my wifes is a BX19 gti, the Xantia IS slow after driving these cars. If the camshaft wheel was out I imagine the pistons would have hit the valves before the motor could be a whole cycle out (like it must be).
I'll look at lunchtime, but from memory the crankshaft is at about 5:30 (ie: half way between 5 and 6 oclock) with the camshaft pin lined up.
I'm betting the engine runs perfectly as the motor is 180degree out of phase, so everything lines back up (if that makes sense). The car was looked after by a Citroen specialist in Melbourne before my father purchased it & there's no way they would have put the cambelt on with the motor out like this, I'm betting it's been like this from the factory. (they'd have just done what I've done... ie: WTF is going on here ????? then just swapped the belt by marking the old belt then transferring the marks to the new belt).
I think this is what I'm going to have to do ??? Mark the existing belt in several positions, then transfer these marks to the new belt
I'm sure not happy about any of this though ...any other ideas ??
seeya,
Shane L.
PS: Why can't anything ever be bloody easy for me ??? Yeah I know, I know, citroens make life 'interesting'.
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David W
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DoubleChevron
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Hi David,
if the crank was at 10:30 oclock and the camshaft was at 7oclock I'd be happy as the pins would then slip in .... they don't though ...
There is ONLY one hole in the head (at about 7:00), and there is ONLY one not hole, but alloy slot cast into the sump at about 10:30. These don't line up.
Don't get me wrong, this isn't my first cambelt, the GS being a flat four with an overhead cam on each bank, using two belts was a hell of a lot simpler than this 'cos the bloody marks simply DID line up for me (grrrrrr).
seeya,
Shane L.
if the crank was at 10:30 oclock and the camshaft was at 7oclock I'd be happy as the pins would then slip in .... they don't though ...
There is ONLY one hole in the head (at about 7:00), and there is ONLY one not hole, but alloy slot cast into the sump at about 10:30. These don't line up.
Don't get me wrong, this isn't my first cambelt, the GS being a flat four with an overhead cam on each bank, using two belts was a hell of a lot simpler than this 'cos the bloody marks simply DID line up for me (grrrrrr).
seeya,
Shane L.
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DoubleChevron
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- Joined: 22 Sep 2003, 18:06
Hi Guys,
I've just asked a very trusted mechanic on the Citroen DS lists and here's his opinion --which I think I'll go with ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Am I correct that this is a single overhead camshaft inline four with no balance
shafts, and ignition distributor driven by the camshaft?
Such an engine will "want" to stay at TDC on any cylinder. You might as well
pick number 1 (same as number 4). You can find it with good enough accuracy by
sticking a rod down a spark plug hole and turning the engine 'til the piston
reaches the apex. At this point you can carefully remove the belt and nothing's
going to jump out of position. You can use a marking device of some kind to
mark
a tooth on each gear and a reference on something stationary nearby. You can
mark the old belt at the marks on the gear teeth, count the teeth between the
marks and mark the new belt similarly. If you're reasonably certain the engine
is in time now, you'll do no harm by simply putting it back the way you found
it.
Not all engines have timing marks. Many modern Volvo engines are an example.
There are fixtures to establish the correct positions of things, but if you just
put things back as you found them, it's fine.
Does that help?
If the engine has balance shaft or two, there's more to the story.
carter
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm quite certain the engine is right now, however I am concerned as to why it's out of position now (that's why I don't simply want to remove the belt and line the points up). Is it possible they have fitted an incorrectly drilled camshaft pulley, or cranch pulley etc... at time of manufactur ?? The motor certainly runs nicely exactly how it is, I think I'm inviting problems by moving it.
The woodruff keys on both the camshaft and crankshaft appear quite sound with no signs of wear/abuse.
seeya,
Shane L.
I've just asked a very trusted mechanic on the Citroen DS lists and here's his opinion --which I think I'll go with ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Am I correct that this is a single overhead camshaft inline four with no balance
shafts, and ignition distributor driven by the camshaft?
Such an engine will "want" to stay at TDC on any cylinder. You might as well
pick number 1 (same as number 4). You can find it with good enough accuracy by
sticking a rod down a spark plug hole and turning the engine 'til the piston
reaches the apex. At this point you can carefully remove the belt and nothing's
going to jump out of position. You can use a marking device of some kind to
mark
a tooth on each gear and a reference on something stationary nearby. You can
mark the old belt at the marks on the gear teeth, count the teeth between the
marks and mark the new belt similarly. If you're reasonably certain the engine
is in time now, you'll do no harm by simply putting it back the way you found
it.
Not all engines have timing marks. Many modern Volvo engines are an example.
There are fixtures to establish the correct positions of things, but if you just
put things back as you found them, it's fine.
Does that help?
If the engine has balance shaft or two, there's more to the story.
carter
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm quite certain the engine is right now, however I am concerned as to why it's out of position now (that's why I don't simply want to remove the belt and line the points up). Is it possible they have fitted an incorrectly drilled camshaft pulley, or cranch pulley etc... at time of manufactur ?? The motor certainly runs nicely exactly how it is, I think I'm inviting problems by moving it.
The woodruff keys on both the camshaft and crankshaft appear quite sound with no signs of wear/abuse.
seeya,
Shane L.