1.6hdI fuel injector dripping/bad starting

[paultintin]

Hi I have a grand picasso 2007 1.6hdi I've had numerous issues with the engine(glow plugs,air doseur etc) the latest is this when I go to start in the morning the car will sometimes start straight away then cut out after a few seconds.it can then br a nightmare to start engine will turn over but sounds like no fuel is there. Also the car will give off white smoke once started for the first 30 seconds or so and will idle badly even notice the engine shaking alot but once u go up the rev range out on the open road the car runs fine all power appears to be available and no fault codes. So I was thinking it could be a possible dripping fuel injector which is leaking through the night then cases the issues first thing as once the car is started in the morning the car can be start/stopped multiple times throughout the day with no smoke. Anyone have any ideas on what else this might be? Also how can u test the injectors without spending a fortune. I have listened to them through a long screwdriver handle and can clearly hear the clicking sound and all 4 sound the same but obviously I don't get to see the spray pattern so they may be duff and I wouldn't know. Any advice would be great as I hate my car lol thanks

[spider]

First things first. Look at the fuel pipes around the filter area. Hopefully there will be a piece of clear hose. Once you have found this, look at it in the morning before you do the first start of the day. And have a look at it as soon as it starts too.

Are there signs of air bubbles in this ?

The 1.4 can suffer from this, so it seems reasonably logical ( ! ) the 1.6 may do this too.

[paultintin]

Hi cheers for the reply I will look for this tomorrow but have never notice a clear pipe before but will have a good look. There is a black pipe behind the injectors that definitely has fuel running through it if u squeeze it u can feel the fuel in there but will look harder tomorrow cheers

[spider]

You're welcome. If you have a 'primer' (the black rubber grenade you squeeze) follow the pipes from that. Not all 1.6's have them though from what I can recall. If you have one it will not be too hidden though. Its at the back under the removable cover if you have one. You'll see it. If you're still not sure Google Image search for "1.6 HDi Fuel Primer"

There is usually a length of clear fuel pipe fitted however, specifically so you can see air in it. Air bubbles = not brilliant as diesels rely on not having any interruption (aka air!) in the fuel supply.

[paultintin]

Ok cheers will have a google and a look around the engine tomorrow and get back to you thanks for the help

[paultintin]

I located the primer its sat just behind the injectors followed pipes but non were clear all black. What I did do was listen to the injectors with a long screwdriver sat on top of them while the engine is running and all 4 sounded identical so at least I know there firing but obviously can't see the spray pattern without taking them out and getting them tested. However whilst doing this I noticed a small amount of smoke coming from around the furthest right injector and there is some black build up if I look down with a light. so I'm thinking the seals have probably gone on at least 1 injector which would make sense as once the car is warm it idles fine so would say the seal expands once warm fixing any issue. So I may do the lot get all seals ordered and fit them but was thinking I may as well get the injectors tested whilst there out for the seals. I've also ordered a fuel filter as I don't believe it's been changed in a long time as previous owner lied about the service history on the car and I had to do oil/air filter oil change and 2 glow plugs that were duff. Do u think I'm going down the right track with the seals/injectors as only other thing I can think of is the fuel pump or fuel lines thanks again for the help

[spider]

I'd suggest removing them and replacing the seals / washers at least then.

New fuel filter is a good idea. I think on the 1.6 it may be a complete 'unit' like the 1.4 is (no element you get a whole housing) you just swap the water detector if its got one and the heater over, they just screw in anyway.

I'm surprised there is not a length of clear fuel pipe, this would help matters however if its "coaling" near an injector then the seals are in need of attention as this could well be the cause.

As a note: Bear in mind the fuel pressure on a HDi unit is about 10 to 20 times (if not more) higher than a conventional diesel engine. You cannot (with any form of safety) 'crack' an injector on these. You'd be surprised how far a jet of fuel can travel ( ! )

If having the injectors tested, bear in mind the tolerances of the HDi injectors is very very high (as are all common rail type engines) compared to 'conventional' diesel injectors. I'd just say this as it needs a specialist (someone who knows what they are doing) to test them properly, not a job for a local garage. You can't get things like "needle and nozzle" kits for these unlike the older engines.

[paultintin]

Hi yeah the fuel filter is a complete housing so it's just a case of swapping a few things and putting it back on this may not be the cause of the problem but it's got to help well I hope lol. I got the injectors booked into a professional place just got to drop them off Monday and should have them back Tuesday worse case Wednesday. Once I removed them there wasn't that much of a build up around where they go. 3 looked dry and the right 1 had some build up that still appeared damp so again changing these and getting injectors checked has got to help. Unless the pipe that is clear is right round the back I couldn't find it I followed as many pipes as I could find off the primer. Would u know if the primer should have fuel in it all the time as I've noticed when the engine has cut out and I've gone to prime it usually feels empty after about 10 squeezes u can clearly hear and feel the fuel in it. I'm wondering if the fuel is slowly drain back through and leaving air in the system hence why it starts then cuts out and takes ages to start back up. So maybe there is a dodgy pipe or fuel pump but that's only going on the assumption that the primer should have fuel in it. All your help has been really useful and means I'm going in the right direction well hopefully lol

[spider]

Welcome.
It should feel reasonably full, if its draining back that would be a concern too.

I would actually (I'll stick my neck out a bit here) suspect its not a 'drain back' as in a valve but its taking a bit of air in instead. Without a piece of clear pipe its going to be difficult to tell though. Can you examine the black piping around the primer / filter area very closely, look for signs of it rubbing or perishing.

[Bick]

When you have trouble starting pump the hand primer a few times and then try it if it starts your fuel is draining back.

Get the leaking injectors sorted ASAP - then do an oil flush and change. Do a search on this site for 1.6hdi leaking injectors and the problems it causes with carboning up the oil and screwing turbos.

Like said change the fuel filter.

Go from there

[paultintin]

Yeah cheers the injectors should be sent off and back with me Tuesday evening so should be able to fit them Wednesday wit new seals. I've ordered the fuel filter just waiting on it turning up if after doing both of those jobs it's still starting cutting then being difficult to start I will have to get all fuel pipes checked as some where it must be draining back. I know the fuel filater came out when I done the glow plugs so maybe there's been a split in the pipe somewhere when I've pushed and pulled it aound to me room to get to glow plugs. Really appreciate the help I'll update u again once I've done the fuel filter and injectors. Thanks again

[spider]

You're welcome.

If its any help ( ? ) the 1.4Hdi (I know yours is the 1.6) the most common problem with the fuel pipes is where they run under the airbox at the back of the engine (about where your primer bulb is) they sort of vibrate a bit and eventually rub. The issue on these is not one of leakage usually, what happens is it become more and more difficult to start when its been stood for a time. Eventually it gets to the stage where it won't start at all. It does happen relatively slowly though in most cases, in that it will first become difficult to start once its been stood a few hours then it becomes once its been stood half an hour , getting 'less time' over each week or so.

Hope that makes a bit of sense. I don't know if the 1.6 is vulnerable to this too, however the principle applies, tis quite possible for a low pressure pipe (tank to filter to primer etc) to have a leak, but because its under light depression (vacuum / suction in effect) you are likely to not see much if any fuel leakage, as its "pulling in" hence it will be trying to take a bit of air in. It does not take much air in the fuel line to upset a diesel engine.

[paultintin]

Yeah cheers that makes perfect sense I have noticed some smoke every so often when the engine is running it comes from what looks like the injectors area but we seem unable to find the exact source of it as we have noticed it come from behind the engine so I wonder if a slightly damaged pipe is dripping the odd bit of fuel onto the engine not sure what temp the diesel would burn at mind and if the pipe is damaged/split it would explain why the fuel would not be in the primer as while the engine is sat still it slowly weeps out and it does appear to happen with less and less time in between starting problem so while the injectors are away and it's in bits I will investigate the pipes maybe remove the scuttle again (pain in the arse job) so I can get a better view and access. If any of the pipes look a little perished then I will swap all I can. Cheers again for that and I think u could be spot on with that diagnosis.

[paultintin]

Hi again here's a quick update the injectors came back with a clean bill of health so thats good. The fuel filter has been changed and I have checked as much as I can for a fuel leak but cannot find a thing. The car starts runs for a couple of seconds then cuts out and I have to pump the primer about 10 times or more to start to feel fuel I it once there is fuel the car starts and runs fine. It drives fine there is no lag or power loss throughout the engine range the only problem is on start up. Anyone have any further ideas what this could be (crank sensor or something ) or is it still looking like a damaged fuel pipe and maybe had to be a garage job. Any help would be really grateful many thanks

[Hell Razor5543]

If you are having to pump the primer it could suggest that air is getting into the fuel line somewhere (fuel does NOT have to be leaking out). I would be inclined to see if pumping the primer FIRST (until it goes hard) before starting the car allows it to run properly, or if it cuts out again.