C5 2.0 HDI 136 RHR ECU cutting out

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teuski
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C5 2.0 HDI 136 RHR ECU cutting out

Post by teuski »

Long story short my ECU blacks out for a blink of an eye all the time.

I have changed ECU and BSM without any help.

There's a grey wire (possibly 1248) in BSM's noir connector pin4 that has +12v cutting out. I need to know where it goes.
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Re: C5 II BSM wiring diagram?

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Well there are probably hundred's of combos, so send you VIN number (so I can identify the exact model then I can get your RPO from this) then I can have a look.
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Re: C5 II BSM wiring diagram?

Post by teuski »

The RPO is 10118 and VIN is VF7**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff].

Thank you in advance :)
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Re: C5 II BSM wiring diagram?

Post by GiveMeABreak »

teuski wrote:The RPO is 10118 and VIN is VF7**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff].
Thank you in advance :)
I'm going to need a bit more to go on. I have all the hundreds of wiring diagrams for your car, but as you may know there are ECUs for just about every bit of equipment. There isn't a BSI - only diagram - just the fuses. The Engine is broken down into 5 categories, cooling, starting, injection, coolant heating and particle filter etc.....

Code 1248 for a wire comes up as: variable timing solenoid valves / supply
For Equipment, code 1248 shows as EGR Calibration resistance.

So unless I know what bit of equipment I'm looking at, I don't know where else to look. Also what do you mean your ECU 'blacks out' - what ECU are you talking about??? It sounds like you are talking about an instrument display!
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Re: C5 II BSM wiring diagram?

Post by teuski »

The patient is a '04 facelift 136 HDi break manual.

I bought it as it is and some things are just hat i've heard from the seller.

After cold start the engine stalls after a few seconds. The instrument panel and everything inside the car stays on (except the heater panel but i'll explain that later on) but the engine ECU clearly loses power. The blackout is so short if i keep revs over around 2000rpm it won't stall from the blackout.
If i have Lexia connected to the engine ecu, it loses the connection when the blackout happens.

When the engine is completely warm it starts working. Only then the heater blower will turn on and the webasto will be able to start (more later).
Sometimes it also starts working when i erase all engine ECU faults with Lexia but the stalling might still appear before the engine is warm. Mostly after erasing it says "faults remaining" but when i read them, there's none. Read again instantly and the memory fault could very well be there.

Lexia keeps showing a (probably unrelated) permanent fault with the coolant bypass solenoid (only in earliest RHR engines). There's also "ECU memory fault", "ECU microprocessor fault". The memory fault's details always show battery voltage as 0,56V.

When the ignition is on but engine not running it still has those blackouts every few seconds. I know it because the heater panel resets itself.

It has been around -5 to +5 celsius here since i've had the car. The seller said the problems disappear above around +10 degrees.
I have cleaned every connector i can, the battery is good and so on...

The heater panel blacks out too because of aftermarket (probably done as new) webasto clock wiring. There's a relay that connects 2 wires coming from the panel and the relay is controlled by that grey wire coming the BSI's big "noir" connector pin4. 1248 is just a good guess, it isn't that clear. There are also 2 other relays which control the heater blower and webasto water pump. They are controlled by BSM's grey 5pin connector's pin3 (yellow, possibly 2799).

The grey wire has +12V and it is lost during the blackout. If i put direct +12V to that wire the heater panel stays on but the engine ECU still blacks out.

I have already changed the engine ecu to a similar type (SID803 5S40199D-T) one to which my original ECU's data was cloned to. It didn't help so i sought out an another BSM (BSM-L06-00) and it didn't help either.

I could get an another ecu from a similar '05 car with a different number plus the BSI and immo chip to try out, but i'm pretty sure they won't work.

I guess there's also a ton of choices for the BSI? Maybe if i find a right one i could get my existing ecu immo cleared and use that new BSI. But that'll cost me so i'd first like to know if the BSI even is a reasonable thing to try. But if not, what then?

For now my only leads are those to wires in the BSM...

As you mentioned EGR, the pipe has been blocked but the valve hasn't been programmed out since it makes a fault if i remove the connector. What's weird is that theres usually a clearly audible constant high-pitched beeping noise coming from the EGR valve even when the ignition is off.

The problem persists even if i disconnect the EGR, coolant bypass solenoid, MAF and everything else i've tried.
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Re: C5 II BSM wiring diagram?

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Yes there are a lot of choices for the BSIs - they are different depending on Basic, Medium and High trim levels for your C5 Mk2, but any replacements are now shipped by Citroen only in the High trim level. I'm not an expert on Webasto heaters, but see that they require splicing into existing wiring... so anyone's guess as to whether that was done correctly.

It does sound as though there is a bad circuit somewhere as when warming up contact is made and when cool - you seem to have the cutting out issues. The fact that as you have said the Lexia also looses connection would seem to confirm it is electrical. The question is whether it is the engine fuse box that has developed a cracked solder joint or not.

The engine fuse box is a Siemens and is PSA part No: 6500 CK
The BSI is part 6580 KH (unconfigured) or 6580 KJ configures with VIN on order.

Here are the BSIs for your C5 - it will be one of these 2 - the labels help identify the correct type:

This one is the CAN version also used on the C6
Image

This one is the VAN version
Image

At least now with this additional info there may be a member who can advise further. :-D
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Re: C5 II BSM wiring diagram?

Post by BX »

Your 1248 wire is a 12V supply to the diesel heater. The heater is switched on and off by its own thermostat. I know you have tried a different BSM but here me through.
Many of these are affilcted by dry and bad joints where the relays are soldered to the PCB. When loaded the breakdown often occurs causing the supply to be broken only to restore quickly again. This wire is fed from F10. You could try keeping this supplied temporarily to see does it overcome your problem. PM me your email address and i will send you the fuel injection wiring diagrams as a pdf file.
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Re: C5 II BSM wiring diagram?

Post by teuski »

I guess all diesel C5's here in Finland were factory fitted with Webasto additional heaters. The preheater capability (the clock controller and additional relays to control the heater blower without ignition on) has mostly been installed afterwards because the original factory installed kit has been ridiculously expensive.

I do not doubt the installation since it probably has worked since 2004. Well, as far as i know the Webasto itself has been changed once.

Wire 1248 being supply to the Webasto sounds reasonable, but the wire is very thin so i guess that might just be for controlling a relay that supplies the power.
But as i mentioned earlier, when i feed +12V to that wire from the base of the webasto panel control relay, the panel stays on but the blackout still happens.
I can't be really sure about the number, so it would be nice to find out what actually is connected to that pin in the BSM.

The webasto clock is probably broken but the control works when i manually ground the control wire. That way i can get the webasto running when the car is shut down and ignition is off.
Haven't checked how the heater panel works then though. I'll have to try a similar clock from my van at some point.

Then there's the other connection to the BSM via the grey connector. I'd like to know what that is too.

I'll pm you my email, BX. Thanks!
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Re: C5 II BSM wiring diagram?

Post by BX »

It is the heater for the diesel fuel for the engine. It is to prevent waxing in low temperatures. It isn't the Webasto unit.
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Re: C5 II BSM wiring diagram?

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Some were retrofitted utilising those diesels with the diesel pre-heaters already installed by manufacturer as half the kit was there already and didn't need all the clobber for a full fit. If no pre-heater then a full retrofit kit was an option. They are dual-purpose - engine pre-heating and also passenger cabin heating in addition. For anyone interested, here's a vid:
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C5 2.0 HDI 136 RHR ECU cutting out

Post by teuski »

My problem was discussed briefly here:
http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... =3&t=54754

Here's the short version:
The car is a '04 C5-II with an early RHR engine (solenoid controlled coolant bypass, no FAP) and manual gearbox.

There is a short, frequent blackout that probably shuts down the engine ECU. Connection to it is lost with Lexia and the engine stalls (stays running with revs, the blackout is so short). Everything else (excepts for the heater panel as mentioned in the other topic) stays on.
When the blackout happens, some relay makes a sound in the BSM and the wire 1248 in the BSM (for fuel heater) blacks out too.
It happens with ignition on, no matter if the engine is running.

There is some logic in how it works, so maybe someone has an idea what is the main cause.

The blackout happens every 5 seconds after i turn the ignition on. It does so for 7 times in a row and then stops. After that the engine won't start (it tries though).
If i start the engine and let it stall every time, it won't start after 8 blackouts. If i keep it with high rev's it will still stall when the 8th blackout happens.
It won't start again until i keep the ignition off for about 10 seconds or disconnect the battery.

If i force it to get the coolant warmer that ignition off-time gets longer. Disconnecting the battery makes it run again.

If i disconnect the ECU fuse F1 from the BSM the blackouts stop. I have already changed the ECU and the BSM and cleaned all the connectors that i can.
It's pretty hard to monitor any ignition ECU parameters because it disconnects constantly, but everything has been in order.

I bought the car in tat state but then it worked when it was war or when i cleared the faults with Lexia. But not any more.

The faults in ignition ECU are:
Coolant bypass solenoid valve open circuit (permanent, always there even when it worked otherwise)
Ignition ECU memory fault
Ignition ECU Microprocessor fault
Pre-post heating relay. Plugs never supplied.
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Re: C5 2.0 HDI 136 RHR ECU cutting out

Post by GiveMeABreak »

I think it would of been better to update your existing topic, as this will confuse potential repondents.

If you feel that this topic heading is better suited than the other one, I'm sure one of the Moderators or Admins can merge these under this new topic? :wink:
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Re: C5 II BSM wiring diagram?

Post by myglaren »

Threads merged
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Re: C5 2.0 HDI 136 RHR ECU cutting out

Post by teuski »

My next step is to try out a BSI from an another car. I won't get my car running but at least i'll see if it still blacks out when the ignition is off.
If it helps, the guy who cloned my ECU promised to unlock the immo from my ECU so i can get the car running with the "wrong" BSI.
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Re: C5 2.0 HDI 136 RHR ECU cutting out

Post by teuski »

After a while i found some inspiration to try out an another BSI but the problem persists.

From this schematic i traced the blackouts in 1248 to injection ECU (lower right) 48VMR pin J3 which grounds R1 coil but is cutting out too.
F1 is the injection ECU fuse and it doesn't cut out but the ECU itself does. Is there an another way than just using a multimeter to find out where the F1 connects in the ECU?

So far i've tried to change all the ECU, BSM and BSI. The ECU was cloned from my old one and the guy told me that if there was a fault in the program it wouldn't have been possible. But who knows...

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