Citroen Relay van black smoke, no power

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pogo001
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Citroen Relay van black smoke, no power

Post by pogo001 »

Hi.
I realise this isnt a car, its a van, but this seems the most active forum for french vehicles.

I have just bought a 2008 Relay van, 2.2 diesel, I believe it shares the engine with the transit.I bought it cheap, very cheap with a problem, loss of power and black smoke. It drove ok on the test drive, sluggish, but ok. However, it didnt make it home. After a great start, when it all seemed to clear and regain full power, it then got progressivly worse until the van belched loads of black smoke, and wouldnt even pull forward without stalling.
I towed it home, took off the egr valve (2 snapped bolts, lovely)and have cleaned it, and also made a blanking plate. I refitted along with the blanking plate but there is no difference at all. Admittedly, I havent tried it without the blanking plate, but it only just starts then stalls with loads of black smoke.
So, I did the easy fix, which didnt work.
I have a very cheap code reader which has worked on other cars. It will read the citroen, but comes up with no code.
Can anyone suggest what to do next? Maybe common ECU problems, or hoses that split?
I will add, the engine gets covered in water, its as if the bonnet is open when it rains. This may or may not be relevant.

Last point, I live in rural france, the van wont drive, the local Citroen dealer is miles away, I dont have any handy 'come to you' mecanics etc.

There, nice easy one for you guys to help solve!! :lol:
rory_perrett
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Re: Citroen Relay van black smoke, no power

Post by rory_perrett »

Diagnosis at a distance is never that clever but here goes. Black smoke on a diesel is usually due to unburnt fuel. This is either too much fuel, too little air or poor combustion.

Check that the air filter is clean and that there are no restrictions to the air flow into the engine.
Over fuelling could be a number of things, MAF sensor could be duff meaning the ECU thinks more air is flowing into the engine than actually is.
Faulty injectors letting too much fuel in.
Crank position sensor duff meaning timing of injection is wrong leading to poor combustion.
Turbo failing/ failed.
A block fuel filter could also lead to poor combustion.

As a shot in the dark, as it appears intermittent - faulty reading from a sensor which could be wiring to it or the sensor itself. Crank position sensor would be my staring point.
pogo001
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Re: Citroen Relay van black smoke, no power

Post by pogo001 »

Thanks for the idea.
However, I should say, its not intermittent. It got progressivly worse, and is now unable to move forward under its own power, and belches black smoke. It could be that the turbo has failed. I would have expected blue smoke, and at least some power, but it stutters just trying to keep it running. It runs badly for a few seconds and then dies.
BX
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Re: Citroen Relay van black smoke, no power

Post by BX »

This is the Transit engine lifted straight from the Transit, dropped into a Ducato and called the Relay. A search on a Transit forum will probably yield more information. Or just Google it.
Common problems on this particular engine which can cause heavy black smoke include, failing injectors, metering valves, loose injector clamps, EGR valves, failed turbo chargers and just for the fun of it total engine failure due to scored bores even on low Km well serviced ones. It is common for them to take off on their own engine oil.
Check for oil in the induction air pipes and manifold.
Why did PSA not stick to their own hdi engines?
pogo001
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Re: Citroen Relay van black smoke, no power

Post by pogo001 »

Thanks. Looks like quite a list.......where to start. Ill check the easy things, and hopefully find someone who can come round and do a proper diagnostics check for me.
Personally, what I am sure is the issue that will solve the puzzle is why, over the distance of maybe 20 miles the van went from driving sluggishly, to completely unable to move under its own power.
Bick
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Re: Citroen Relay van black smoke, no power

Post by Bick »

Those 2.2 Ford engines do suffer from many problems as BX says. Dont overlook the injectors may pay you to do a leak off test as the Delphi injectors are a real weak point.
Peter.N.
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Re: Citroen Relay van black smoke, no power

Post by Peter.N. »

Try disconnecting the air intake hose from the manifold and see if it still does it, that will eliminate the possibility of a restriction of the air supply.

Peter
pogo001
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Re: Citroen Relay van black smoke, no power

Post by pogo001 »

I am going to clean the MAF sensor, so will disconnect the intake hose.
Can anyone explain how to do a leak off test? Not much of a diesel man TBH lol

Of course, all this will be done when its not lashing down and blowing a gale. Cant even get the van up the ramp into my barn!
Bick
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Re: Citroen Relay van black smoke, no power

Post by Bick »

Have a look on youtube for the leak off test for any hdi engine.
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myglaren
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Re: Citroen Relay van black smoke, no power

Post by myglaren »

Try this for the basic idea

A couple of threads covering it:
http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... hp?t=28506
http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... hp?t=28508

The images seem to have evaporated but here is an homemade kit from one of our members (sorry, cann't remember who now)

Image
pogo001
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Re: Citroen Relay van black smoke, no power

Post by pogo001 »

Thanks guys.
Looks a bit more like specimen samples ready for testing.
Paul
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Zelandeth
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Re: Citroen Relay van black smoke, no power

Post by Zelandeth »

Black smoke on a diesel means one of two things. Too much fuel or not enough air (or both).

Sounds very like what a mate's Passat was doing a few years ago when one of the silencers had collapsed internally. Took a while to figure out that it was smoking because that was impairing the turbo's ability to spool up so the engine wasn't getting enough air.

Imagine this has a DPF on it, could be worth splitting it from the downpipe and seeing if the engine runs better. Easy to eliminate an exhaust blockage at least.
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white exec
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Re: Citroen Relay van black smoke, no power

Post by white exec »

A turbo diesel will drive quite happily with no exhaust connected - just the first downpipe after the turbo left in place. The turbo quietens very effectively.
Try driving thus, to eliminate exhaust issues.
pogo001
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Re: Citroen Relay van black smoke, no power

Post by pogo001 »

Some very helpful idea, thanks everyone...now just wish the rain would stop.

A friend has a garage, in the uk. His guys said the oil feed to the turbo gets blocked, common problem, and it knackers the turbo. What I want opinions on, is would that cause black smoke? I would have thought blue/white smoke, and still driveable. Im not expert though, but the van will now not even rev, it just stuuters, belches black smoke and stalls.

I have had to cover the engine and electrics as well, water pours in covering everything in the engine bay.....I wondered if this was relevant.

Paul
BX
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Re: Citroen Relay van black smoke, no power

Post by BX »

In my opinion it's impossible to diagnose something like this at a distance. The possibilities and the common faults on this engine have been listed in the various posts in this thread.
What you have to do now is engage in a process of logical fault finding, starting with physical checks. If this does not reveal the problem then use electronic diagnosis, reading both fault codes and live data and analysing what you find.
Black smoke is too much fuel for the amount of air available. The excess fuel may very well be engine oil (sometimes oil doesn't realise it should produce Blue smoke)
Two other things to add to the list of items to check. Butterfly valve in the intake pipping. And possibly the timing chain has jumped a tooth.