Saxo VTR Engine does not crank [turn over]

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aladinsane
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Saxo VTR Engine does not crank [turn over]

Post by aladinsane »

Came back from my daughters having being there a month or so DIY[ing], tried to turn over engine of this car using ignition key as I always do periodically as it stands there on the drive unused most of the time. Clunk not turning over at all, thinking it may be the battery not having enough in it to turn the starter over I did a conductance test which showed battery was defective, replaced battery and attempted to turn engine over, again 'clunk' and nothing. Two things came immediately to mind the starter could have jammed or at worst the engine seized, and so I called the RAC, they duly attended, and in the most horrendous weather myself and the RAC tried to get this motor going, first by rocking car in gear try and free starter motor if it were stuck, then by trying to jump start it with the RAC industrial leads attached to my battery on the car, all to no avail, so we tried in vain the two of us to bump start it and in the end gave up and had to push the car back onto my driveway where this car still stands now. One thing of note that I noticed is that for some obscure reason the heater blower motor packed in too, why, well I do not know if it is coincidental or not, but is it part of this fault or not, well anyone know where I go from here, for sure I don't, other than remove the starter motor and try it on an auxillary battery, just getting too old to lie flat backed on the ground in this winter weather and my interest in cars has diminished as I have grown older. [-o<
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chinkostu
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Re: Saxo VTR Engine does not crank [turn over]

Post by chinkostu »

Ignition barrel i would hedge a bet at for the blower. Does the rear heated screen not work either? Theres a fix for that.

My first bet would have been battery for the nonstart but you've covered that. Battery leads all ok? The ign issue could be related if the barrels worn and it isnt actually connecting the terminals, but then a bump start would have worked. Any other issues with the ignition on?


Also, have you tried hitting the starter motor? I know its a bit of a pig to reach being under the inlet at the back!
aladinsane
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Re: Saxo VTR Engine does not crank [turn over]

Post by aladinsane »

Thanks for the swift reply Incidentally, many years ago I admit knowing a little about cars and just as many years ago would not balk at getting out a spanner to fix these things, but not now, as age creeps up on me so does ill health and so I try to look after mine, having said all this mindful of this car being on an incline I am not happy jacking it up there and shoving blocks under the wheels so I guess it stops there until I can get it moving some other way, like a tow, not going to any garage with it though as this RAC tech indicated I should[well its not him who pays the bill] could have had a free tow there too, but I know from experience what a break down is likely to cost so I told him it stays on my drive. Access to the starter motor is nigh impossible from the top of the engine bay even with the battery removed, years ago I had an inspection pit, oh for half an hour with my car over that now,[ your sure I have covered all bases here] for the longer it stays unstarted certainly in this cold weather the more risk of both engine [piston top end seizing as a consequence and the brake pads sticking to the discs.].still [-o< ing .
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xantia_v6
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Re: Saxo VTR Engine does not crank [turn over]

Post by xantia_v6 »

From the symptoms you describe, I would say that the problem is most likely the starter, but it would be woth checking the battery cables (particularly at the terminals, as they sometimes go high resistance. Did you try giving the start a thump with something heavy?

Did the engine turn over when you tried to bump start the car?

I would not b too concerned about the engine deteriorating in the near term, as many cars ar left outside and neglected for the whole winter, and start up happily in spring (maybe with a new battery).
aladinsane
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Re: Saxo VTR Engine does not crank [turn over]

Post by aladinsane »

Is that checking resistance across the poles or checking continuity between starter + and battery, either way I need this car up from the ground, same applies to enable me to hit the starter motor with something heavy.

No the engine did not turn over as in try to start, but I wonder if that was because it needed more momentum more than one person pushing and another pushing and then jumping into the drivers seat to put it in gear, momentum slowed and what with the horrendous weather I'm afraid we gave in. It never stopped raining hard and we did not try again, however, I may try again with three people, seems where your at is the fact that it would not push at all in gear if the engine was seized. Moreover I have never had a car yet, with starter motor stuck that did not free by selecting gear and rocking it to and fro, have you ?.

Average five degrees below freezing point in the UK at the moment.
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Zelandeth
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Re: Saxo VTR Engine does not crank [turn over]

Post by Zelandeth »

One possibility that does spring to mind (and is pretty quick to discount) is that if there's been a failure of the head gasket, the engine could be hydraulically locked due to water in a cylinder. Quick to disprove this though, just remove the spark plugs and then see if the engine will crank.

This happened to a friend's Saab a few years back - car was running fine the day before, then the next morning got nothing more than a clunk when he tried to start it, turned out cylinder no 3 was full of water.
aladinsane
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Re: Saxo VTR Engine does not crank [turn over]

Post by aladinsane »

Renewed battery, removed starter motor and checked it off the car and found nothing at all wrong with it [ so all that rocking the car in gear was worthless, same as trying to bump start it in gear] so only one thing this problem could now be, and that is a seized engine need then to reduce compression to a bare minimum put a socket on an extended bar and push anticlockwise which is the way this engiine rotates,. 'simples' but what isn't simples and still isn't, is getting this motor going again, because seized or not as it was not a friction related seizure, but because it was a neglect in the cold one my mind turned to top end seizure i.e. the pistons, rings sticking on, so for the next week its in with penetrating fluid, a little daily through the plug holes and try and move the crank shaft and if I do, will try then to start it periodically.. whether it will work I really do not know and its freezing cold outside at the moment, but we shall see, and I will report back on progress as it develops.One thing that gives me cause for concern is the fact that this motor stood only approximately 2 months and the engine seized despite having good oil at a good level [as seen on dipstick]..the mind truly boggles. Driving me nuts this lot, still [-o< [-o< ing Edit: [rotates clockwise not as this post on another well known car site would have one believe.]
Last edited by aladinsane on 25 Feb 2016, 14:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Zelandeth
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Re: Saxo VTR Engine does not crank [turn over]

Post by Zelandeth »

That is odd. Never had that with any car I've worked on unless there was a specific issue tbat had caused it. That's including engines that sat for eight years without being touched.

Any sign of rusty deposits on any of the plugs or looking down the bores that might suggest head gasket failure?

To try to free it off try a teaspoon of diesel in the bores, it's a fantastic penetrating agent.
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chinkostu
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Re: Saxo VTR Engine does not crank [turn over]

Post by chinkostu »

Thats an odd one, the TU isn't bulletproof but i've never heard of one siezing like that.

Engine definately goes the right way too though as the tensioners are on the left of the belt, if my science is correct.
aladinsane
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Re: Saxo VTR Engine does not crank [turn over]

Post by aladinsane »

It has got me perplexed too, so much so and Lord alone knows why, but I again looked at the starter motor and again there is still nothing wrong with it. It is not unknown for Saxo engines to seize though, as I have read about it on the net. One has to be careful when trying to manually turn this engine, one must push the way the engine rotates or more trouble will be caused. Plug seating washers were a little rusty and the air inlet had a little water in it I suspect from condensation rather than rain water ingress as this car stood in the rain hail snow and shine, really if the head gasket has gone I will be very surprised however I'm stymied by this lot anyway, however, thanks to all for staying with me on this, much appreciated..

I put this problem up on another well known site, however never got a sensible reply, things like 'you tried swopping the coil pack and plugs', no I haven't would have been the reply, but I never even bothered to answer that or other absurdities.

I have been through everything with this car, everything I can remember and most of what I have forgot but brought back to mind in my near enough 45 yrs working diy on cars, so more or less since leaving school, and I will never be beaten, but if I cannot get it sorted then that will have to be that, working in the cold and rain is no longer my idea of fun, however I will give it my best- tell me can one get any camera pics up here on this site, if so how is it done please?.
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Re: Saxo VTR Engine does not crank [turn over]

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

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chinkostu
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Re: Saxo VTR Engine does not crank [turn over]

Post by chinkostu »

Iron block so possibly water ingress could rust the chambers?

At this point replacing the block would be the cheapest option, they're not too expensive if you look in the right place (and get the right years as they changed rocker + head designs a few times and i'm not sure if the block did too except for the cartridge oil filter)
aladinsane
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Re: Saxo VTR Engine does not crank [turn over]

Post by aladinsane »

Ah well, cest la vie, not replacing anything on it, car is just too old, its on a 53 reg one of the last ones to roll off the line,[ I am aware Citroen made them till early 2004] however when I bought this car I didn't just buy any car, I bought it for my son and he did it up like a xmas tree, it received loads of attention and has every modification one could throw a stick at so to speak, but when he came from from the Army sadly he wasn't right and wasn't interested anymore.

I will give it a couple of weeks injecting penetrating oil down the plug holes hopefully seeping onto the bores and if it frees all well and good, if not, then that is that,time then to get it towed to the scrapyard..Just two old in my 66th year to start doing things that will put no value on it and are really time consuming, nope time to get rid, but lets just see.

Anyway today drawing on experience I decided to go through the electrics with a multimeter, firstly checking the ignition switch connection at the wire to the solenoid on the starter, got 11.6v from this when my wife turned the key so I can presume from that the ignition switch is ok, the starter is, as I tested off the car ok, and so that takes care of that side of things, it will not crank, just goes clunk when key is turned - so I went back to the earth straps and loosened what was already tight and cleaned contact edge of strip and car body, that sorted I took the earth strap from the gearbox housing to body that is situated underneath the battery holder and retightened that, still a clunk and no cranking,and just to check the earth lead connection I took a jump lead and clamped it to battery negative terminal with its crocodile clip and the other end to the engine body thus creating another substitute earth , tried it again,and nothing but a clunk, so I would have thought that is all bases covered, surely now it now has to be an engine seizure.. Anyway these things are sent to try us and try us they might, however if I can get this car started I will, then I will try get a few hundred quid for it and that will be that..
Last edited by aladinsane on 20 Feb 2016, 19:51, edited 1 time in total.
jgra1
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Re: Saxo VTR Engine does not crank [turn over]

Post by jgra1 »

Sorry to hear this. A strange incident . One thing you could do though..if all else fails get drivers wheel off .. get a socket on the crank pulley and a long extension .support this extension on an axle stand and try and turn the crank with a decent brace ..adding extra leverage .. if it doesn't turn then.. then it may never ..
aladinsane
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Re: Saxo VTR Engine does not crank [turn over]

Post by aladinsane »

Yes, of course you are correct in what you indicate, thanks for the heads up, however I think I did mention what you say further up the page, have you had this problem? For sure I have had engines donkeys years ago seize, two in particular, a Mini and a Samara, one the crankshaft after major dismantling was found to have snapped clean in half across the big ends in a diagonal fashion and the other the oil pump seized on a motor way for heavens sake crunch crunch knackered [thank God the motorways were not as congested as those days].Sold it back to the Russians along with seized engine and got more for it than I paid.Relating those two incidences of seized engine, actually both were due to friction seizure of parts, but not this present problem, car had only been outside but two months and, well as I say I'm totally dumbfounded by it all as I tend very much to agree with Zelandeth in as much as I have bought engines in the past that had no history left outside in a scrapyard, turned them by putting socket on crank and if it turned took a chance that they would be as good as what the scrapyard dealer said and bought it - the Mini for instance I sorted that out with second hand engine all so many years ago, more than I care to remember. [-o< ing