XUD TD swap into XUD n/a

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frenchenstein
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XUD TD swap into XUD n/a

Post by frenchenstein »

Hi there folk,
I have a 2001 Boxer with a 1.9 XUD non turbo, it's a good engine and the van has covered only 29k !!! however it has insufficient get up and go. I have a very good XUD 1.9 TD in a Citroen Dispatch which I want to replace it with. Aside from the inter cooler setup, sump & exhaust issues are there any serious problems that would preclude a swap i.e. the block is completely different? I'd like to do the job over a couple of weekends and do have access to a workshop at all times.
Any info appreciated.
(There are no immobiliser issues either.)
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elma
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Re: XUD TD swap into XUD n/a

Post by elma »

I can only speak regarding doing the same swap between a 306 dt and an ldv pilot (xud9). In that case it all fits except the exhaust manifold which has to be modified.
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CitroJim
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Re: XUD TD swap into XUD n/a

Post by CitroJim »

The biggest issue surrounds the Injection Pump and it very much depends on what type is fitted and what sort of immobiliser is fitted... Mechanically it's no great problem..

Generally later TDs have partially electronic pumps whether they be Lucas or Bosch and therefore they have an ECU associated with them.. They must have the ECU and those ECUs often control the glowplugs too via the TD-specific glowplug control unit as TDs have very different glowplug needs compared to a NA diesel. For a start they need post-heating (the glowplugs continue to work after the engine initially starts)..

So, you will need to have the ECU and glowplug controller that goes with the engine/pump and wire these in which means you'll need detailed and accurate circuit diagrams for both...

The biggest issue will be the immobiliser... If the two engines have similar pumps you might be lucky in that you can transfer immobilisers but the best is to do away with them and wire the stop solenoid direct to a 12v ignition switched supply via a small fuse...

The pump from the NA engine will fit the TD engine and allow it to run of sorts but the fuelling will be less than optimum everywhere and performance will be dismal..

One last suggestion is to fit a fully mechanical Bosch VP20 pump but these in good order are now rare.. Even if you do that you still will have an issue with making the glowplugs work and possibly the tachometer too which in ECU equipped engines works on a signal from the ECU and not direct from the engine.

Hope that helps a little...
Jim

Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
frenchenstein
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Re: XUD TD swap into XUD n/a

Post by frenchenstein »

Thanks CitroJim, I have no immobiliser issues, i have an early Bosch pump on the TD engine and it runs with the minimum of wiring, it was the block that I was concerned with and that the bolting of the alternator, pas pump etc, which are mounted in different locations on the Boxer, would fit ok. I'm a bit disappointed that I'll have no tacho post swap, I was hoping that the tacho signal came from the crank angle sensor; never mind!
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frenchenstein
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Re: XUD TD swap into XUD n/a

Post by frenchenstein »

Thanks Elma
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elma
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Re: XUD TD swap into XUD n/a

Post by elma »

You can take a tacho off the alternator as per LDV. Pain in the backside though and a lot of messing with resistors if you want it accurate.
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Re: XUD TD swap into XUD n/a

Post by frenchenstein »

To be fair the tacho was a bonus so I'll get by without it. Does a diesel vehicle really need one? probably not but I'll have a gauge that is still and useless!
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CitroJim
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Re: XUD TD swap into XUD n/a

Post by CitroJim »

Yes, all the ancillaries will swap block to block easily.. Not a problem there as the blocks are fundamentally the same. As you have a fully mechanical pump too then it's all plain sailing now.. :-D

As Elma says, you should be able to swap over the tacho sender too..

Let us know how it goes...
Jim

Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
frenchenstein
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Re: XUD TD swap into XUD n/a

Post by frenchenstein »

Cheers guys- properly helpful.
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elma
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Re: XUD TD swap into XUD n/a

Post by elma »

Can I see a picture of your Mk1 Escort from Liverpool please? Last job I did was in the factory it came from, they make the Evoke and Discovery these days.
frenchenstein
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Re: XUD TD swap into XUD n/a

Post by frenchenstein »

I don't seem to be able to copy and paste the pic ...
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myglaren
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Re: XUD TD swap into XUD n/a

Post by myglaren »

frenchenstein wrote:I don't seem to be able to copy and paste the pic ...
There is a 'how to' here
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spider
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Re: XUD TD swap into XUD n/a

Post by spider »

Most of what I was going to post has already been said. :D

Generally there is no real issue "bolting it all in"

Be aware transmission ratios are different between N/A and TD units in most cases, I think its the final drive rate (the diff) that is actually different but I've not been able to confirm or deny this.

The HDi gearbox (ideally one from a 306 or 406) is slightly better in ratio's than the XUDT one from what I can gather. It does suit this older engine quite well, at least from what I have heard.

The manifolds are different on N/A vs TD units, and they are different again on pre and post cat N/A units too by quite a bit. Exhaust as well as inlet. They will however swap over if needed. Although not relevant as an example an older 306 NA does not have a cat and the exhaust outlet is in the middle of the manifold. The later N/A ones (aluminium inlet manifold + EGR) have the outlet offset, the point I make here is the downpipes are completely different for these and will not swap. The manifolds will however and its not unknown to use the earlier manifold which allows the cheaper (non cat) downpipe to fit.

Pump / Electronics: Two issues:

1. Immobiliser. I'm not going to cover this again as its been covered before, de-armour generally is the 'quick' method. Do not use your NA pump on the TD as it wlll work but it will be very slow indeed. Potentially slower than the NA unit. I know I've tried it ( ! ) , sometimes you can swap the modules pump to pump but there are risks of it not being accepted if you try this.

2. Electronic advance: Fully mechanical pump is *highly* recommended to avoid more wiring issues. Not difficult to do but "if its not there it cannot break" is my motto with this. To be blunt I've never noticed any increase in either performance or economy from the electronic advance units. They are very reliable to be fair (at least on the XUD, DW8 is another story) but then you are relying on the TDC sensor and needle lift sensor to be good too.

Regarding donors, well the 406 1.9TD's all these have the electronic advance pump. All 306's have a mechanical pump (ignore DW8 306!) with both N/A and TD units. I suspect the ZX is the same. Xara is probably all electronic (unchecked/unconfirmed) given its relative newness. Xantia I expect is half and half. 405 is mechanical advance too.

Regarding Bosch / Lucas: MK1 (to 97) 306's TD are Bosch, N/A are Lucas. There *are* some late MK1 TD's with the Lucas pump but not many. MK2 its opposite, N/A are Bosch and TD are Lucas. I do not have anything against the Lucas pump personally, it works well. The 'top cover' seals can go as can the spindle seal but they are not that difficult to change to be honest. The 'veg oil' people are not keen on them as they do not survive this in most cases which is why they prefer the Bosch unit. Lucas pump is also not quite too tolerant of lack of lubrication (shaft can break) but I think this is quite rare, it won't happen accidentally as far as I'm aware.

405TD are 99% Bosch. 406TD are all Bosch but electronic.


One quick way you can tell with about 80% of XUDT's if its electronic or not even if some of the engine is actually awol ( ! ) is look at the thermostat housing, as the electronic advance ones do *not* have the fast idle thermostat fitted in most cases, there is just a blanking plug there instead. There are exceptions to this however but generally its about right.

Some plumbing may be needed with regards to the intercooler if required. The "top mounted" one will not function properly unless it gets air going through it , after all that's what it is there for. A look under a 306TD / 405TD bonnet and you'll see the um "scoops" on the underside of the bonnet. 406 has front mounted intercooler and plumbing for it there too.

Bit of an oldish topic I know but I thought it was worth a couple of minutes posting this as it may prove useful for future reference.
Andy.

91 205D-Turbo, gone but still missed
02 106D, TUD5B, gone but not really missed apart from the MPG
frenchenstein
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Re: XUD TD swap into XUD n/a

Post by frenchenstein »

Anyway the swap wasn't too difficult:

swap the oil pick up pipe, sump, manifolds, cam cover, breather hoses, oil filler assembly, engine mounting bracketry on the driver's side, PAS pump, alternator mount bracket, alternator, some breather hoses, coolant outlet on rear of block and you'll need to modify one or two coolant outlets at the front of the engine (dependant on which car you lift the turbo engine from) and the crankcase breather. This isn't an exhaustive list but it covers most items that you'd need to be wary of.

As for the turbo:

the Citroen Dispatch turbo would have been ok but I didn't fancy having to extensively modify its' outlet so I bought a used turbo from a Ducato (that came with the cast iron outlet) and fitted that. Sourcing all the pipes and hoses required to make it all work was an adventure but jolly worthwhile. The van drives really well with buckets more torque. As a brief note I decided not to bother with an intercooler, although I did acquire one for the job, having plumbed the turbo without it and now driven the van for a couple of thousand miles I find I have a spare intercooler!

Also the Rev counter works just fine; I couldn't understand the previous comment with regards to it not working, there is no revolution sensor in the injection pump, the pick up for the tachometer is from the sensor behind the flywheel, also used for the EGR system on some models.

Can anyone tell me how to upload images as I've recorded a fair few from this swap.
Last edited by frenchenstein on 24 Apr 2021, 21:49, edited 2 times in total.
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CitroJim
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Re: XUD TD swap into XUD n/a

Post by CitroJim »

Excellent work sir :D

Here's how to load pictures:

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... 19&t=35470
Jim

Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...