Xantia II 1.9 TD '99, few questions.

[Deacon]

Hi guys,

Long time no see from me, which is a good thing when talking about car forums (no issues) .

I have a couple of questions about the car:

1. Front suspension:

a - When going over speed bumps, or turning and there are bumps I hear a slight knock from the front/right. The wishbone bushes were just replaced, so it is not them and Macpherson strut tops are fine too. Is the sound coming from the drop link? How can I test it (maybe jack the car up so the wheel will lift off) ?

b - When going over speed bump, there is that slight creak noise when the car comes down of the bump. Can the bushes of the front suspension stabilizer arm be the cause?

c - That's the new one which pi**es me off, appeared 1 week ago after I did the Citroen suspension gymnastics. When stopping at neutral and the road is uneven, there is that low level - high pitched screeching sound coming up, like there are mouses that chase each other under the front of the car. I have no idea what that is, can you help? It is coming from front center/right part.

2. Rear suspension:

a - When the road is wet, let's say after heavy rain, and I drive enough so that the underside of the car is soaked with water, when I go over bumps there is that blunt knocking sound coming from the rear/right suspension. I thought it might be the spare tire, it isn't - I "modified" the holder to close so tight, so that the tire won't move even if Star Trek Enterprise tries to move it. What can this be?


3. Engine:

a - There is black sludge in the cooling tank, not much though but you can see it on the level stick in the expansion tank. The antifreeze is the blue one and has been changed for the last time 4.5 years ago. Eventually it needs a little bit of topping at let's say 8/9 months (the level will fall with 1 cm under the top mark) . I checked the pH with my mechanic and it is rated at 8, which my mechanic says is within the limit and no change is necessary, because the new coolants are cr*p (too acidic) and will eat radiators, hoses and water pumps for breakfast, especially in older cars (he referred to Total's blue antifreeze, don't know about the pink/red ones). The engine temp never goes above 90 C, which may happen on a very, very hot day and for a few moments. when idling.

The can isn't touching the oil and the oil itself is clear, also the underside of the expansion tank's cap is clear (no brown nasty stuff) and the coolant itself is clear, the sludge will "attach" to the sides of the coolant tank and the level stick, also I do not see air bubbles when revving the engine with the cap opened. There is no white smoke coming from the rear. A little bit of white smoke may come out on a very cold day when I rev the engine a lot, otherwise not.

So my question is, could this black sludge be from the usage (i.e. amortization of hoses, etc.)? Should I worry about this? Should I change the antifreeze and do a throughout flush of the system?

Sorry for the long post.

Thanks in advance for the assistance!

[Deacon]

Hi guys,

New question:

Two weeks ago I went on vacation to Greece. The car was fully packed with 4 people, full fuel tank, trunk full of luggage, AC blasting all the time, and on top of that - a refrigerated box powered by the lighter, was on all the time, so yes, the engine was pretty much loaded.

The road was 1000 km in both directions combined, and the air temperature was around 38 degrees C. There was some prolonged mountain climbing at times, where we reached I believe ~1000 m above sea level (at least). During the climbing, the temperature of the engine would sometimes reach 100 C, not more, and then will come back down rapidly to ~82 degrees, and this repeated itself all the time when climbing.

Considering the above mentioned factors, was this engine temperature behavior normal? When driven in the same conditions on a flat road, the engine temp will not pass 85 degrees.

Thanks.

[Hell Razor5543]

That seems pretty normal to me. When I had a Xantia HDi, I was helping my brother move (and we had to use a trailer). When we were stationary the temperature would creep up, and then the fans would kick in, taking it back down. When we were moving at a reasonable speed the temperature was less than 90.

[Deacon]

Thanks for the reply. It appears everything is in order then.

One thing I noticed though... During the climbing the engine was pretty stressed (2500/3000 RPM was the norm), and fairly well heated up, and the turbo sound note changed to a higher pitched one... I guess this was due to the fact that the oil temp was high as well. I am with 5W40 Total. However, when things cooled down a bit after the climbing part, the sound note was back to normal - no signs of turbo failure (Thanks God)

I'm thinking, should I start using 5W50 for better high temp protection? It appears that climate change does happen, and where I live, 40 C during the summer is getting normal. And this is pretty close to *w40's temp range limit. Any opinions on this?

[Raul]

My car also had a black sludge in the expansion bottle when I bought the 1,9 td. It could be the oil cooler. I removed the piping from it and blocked both end of the cooler with a short pipe. The engine runs fine and has no head gasket failure symptoms. I tried to test the cooler with compressed air putting the cooler in the water but it did not show the leak.
On a warm day the 1,9 gets hot very easily when stationary and boils quickly when the fans are not working. One of the first things on the xud is to make sure the cooling system is working properly. Regular coolant changes are a must. I also installed a manual switch for radiator fan on my peugeot 205. The hdi in my experience is not so prone to overheating when stationary or driving slow in the traffic jam - the fans are rarely on.

[Old-Guy]

1.
a) Check the suspect drop link with the car parked on a level surface and the steering turned to the opposite side. Grovel on the ground and grab the drop link - shake hard. If it's bad, you'll be able to feel some play at top or bottom. Make sure you buy a good quality replacement (e.g. genuine Lemforder) of the same design (the orientation of one end changed around 1998).

b) Could also be slightly dry top seals on the front struts - Suspension on HIGH, push the gaiter up and smear a few drops of LHM onto the shaft.

c) Check the condition and tension of the auxiliary drive belt - sounds like it's slipping, probably on the HP pump but might be the crankshaft pulley. Check the condition of the latter too.

2. With the car parked on level ground, sqat down some metres behind the car and look at the rear wheels. Does the right-hand wheel lean in at the top slightly? If so, then it's rear-arm bushes. I've never done the job so I can't advise, but it's a common problem with higher mileage Xantias, particularly those (previously) used as a taxi.

3. Sounds like a familiar problem. An oil-way passes through the head-gasket; most gaskets have a copper seal at this point. If the car has had a history of being used for short journeys (particularly in winter) with the oil not changed often enough, then a combination of acid in the oil, copper ring, alloy cylinder head creates a nasty Galvanic cell that eats into the head. You then get a tiny weep of oil into the cooling system. The proper cure is to have the head skimmed and fit a new head gasket. You could just ignore it until it gets really bad, making sure you change oil and coolant regularly.

[Stickyfinger]

Just to add to the good advice offered above, add a strong mix (double) of good antifreeze to prevent/negate the reactions with the copper head gasket and as said, change it yearly. (They have anti corrosion additives)

[Deacon]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the tips! (sorry for not doing this earlier, but vacations...)

Going to check the suspension as per your advises as soon as possible.

One thing that I will do first is to change the coolant, and yes - Old-Guy got it spot on - the car travels on short city trips most of the time (15 km in one direction, then after 9 hours, 15 km back) and we have a nasty winter here. I am changing the oil regularly (5W40 fan here), but I have to say that I messed up with the Antifreeze change.

Regarding Stickyfinger's advise - add double mix of good antifreeze - I think my car has 9 liters coolant capacity, so I should fill all the 9 liters with antifreeze concentrate only?

Also I was thinking about going for the "Red" (because it's long life) antifreeze. Is there any other reason why I shouldn't do it, except the price? The car has been running all its life on Blue antifreeze. The main reason why I have this on my mind, is because I spoke to my mechanic about the coolant change, and he said that the new "Blue" coolant (citing Total's) is very acidic and likes to chew through hoses/radiators/heater matrix.

When I change the coolant I will keep an eye for any oil sludge build up.

Once again, really BIG thanks for the assistance guys! Great community!

[CitroJim]

Don't use neat anti-freeze as it's cooling ability is compromised. Maximum strength should be a 50/50 mix of water and antifreeze..

The problem with red coolant is that it's OAT based and not compatible with the old blue glycol based stuff and if the two mix then nasty things happen. The system would need a total and utter flush first and even then I believe that OAT based is not recommended for older engines/hoses. This is perhaps where your mechanic is confused as OAT is acid-based as the acronym OAT stands for Organic Acid Technology.

I'd go for a 50/50 mix of decent glycol. You can get a long-life glycol and sometimes these are coloured green and one sort was once colored red just for confusion fun..

Change glycol-based coolant every two years and all will be perfect.

[Zelandeth]

No reason really you can't use OAT coolant, just you have to make sure that you have totally purged the system first. Usually I go for a drain, flush, refill with neat water, take the car for a few mile run, drain, refill twice, then put the new coolant in. The issue seems to be that where OAT and glycol/silicate based antifreeze mix, some (but not all) types form crystalline deposits. These are pretty harmless - unless they happen to develop somewhere like in the slip seals of the water pump.

I had a large stock of this stuff and have used it in Ladas (Samara, Niva and Riva), a 94 Fiat Panda, and my current 89 Saab 900 with no issues. Aside from a slightly longer life though, it doesn't really give much of an advantage. I always change my coolant annually anyway...

[Deacon]

Thanks for the advises. I will just use Blue antifreeze then, unfortunately I don't have the time to do the procedure for changing to the Red one. Since I have skipped the change for quite a few years, is this the complete list of things that should be done, or am I missing something?

1. Flush the system/change coolant with 50/50 ratio.
2. Disassemble the radiator - water blast it to wash away any junk sitting on it/ in it.
3. Change thermostat.
4. Change water pump.

[CitroJim]

Last job is to bleed the cooling system. Absolutely critical...

[Zelandeth]

What *is* the recognised procedure for bleeding the system? Sure I remember reading a guide here somewhere, but can't find it now for the life of me. I muddled through it last time but am not entirely sure I did it right.

Given how critical cooling system performance is for the XUD and that it's more fiddly than some cars to bleed because of the header tank position, might be worthy info to be added to the wiki at some point.

If I find the link tomorrow when I'm at a real computer I'll add it here.

[elma]

It's to pour the coolant through a special bottle funnel thing with the engine running and the bleed caps off. The bottles meant to use the weight of the water to push coolant into the bits of the system that are higher than the reservoir. I used to make one from a copella bottle.
Nowadays I just jam in a hose pipe after I've put in the coolant. Both methods got me the same results, coolant always vanishes after first run. It's always good after that's topped up, just the rad filling I think.

[Zelandeth]

Sounds sensible enough. I found that there was quite a strong flow from the bleed point by the fuel primer, so I had a clear tube attached to that running back to the header tank for a few minutes (until there were no more traces of air visible when massaging the rad top hose or revving the engine). Coolant level dropped quite a bit first time out, but still was water in the tank at least.

What is the square electronic thing on the header tank for that matter? Would say level sensor normally but there isn't a warning light for it, so seems a bit pointless if that's the case...its connected, so not a replacement from a different model or anything...