Diesel or petrol - long term prospects

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Richard_C
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Diesel or petrol - long term prospects

Post by Richard_C » 20 Apr 2015, 20:41

I guess a lot of forum readers run diesels, back in the day the PSA XUD unit was the leader in civilized diesels for passenger cars and diesels must surely be the biggest sellers for PSA French cars in the UK now. My "fleet" is all diesel, and I keep cars a long time: currently the three are 17, 8 and 5 years old. I don't live in a big city but I do drive in them fairly regularly.

I read that major cities in Europe are moving to ban diesels, London may follow. I think some German cities require a certificate to enter inner zones. Euro 6 compliance seems to complicate matters with potions and filters so servicing will become harder for DIY and more expensive generally. Petrol engines have got a lot more efficient. The price difference between petrol and diesels and the cheaper fuel (in UK) means the break even is probably around 50k miles.

So the question is, at the next change is the future-proof go anywhere option a petrol engine?

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Re: Diesel or petrol - long term prospects

Post by spider » 20 Apr 2015, 20:47

I have mixed feelings. Personally I still love the XUD unit over the HDi. Not because the HDi is unreliable, its just there is more there to actually go wrong with it in the first place, ie electronics. The DW8 was an ahem 'interesting' offshoot of what happens on a bad day in the design office I think. :oops:

Things are more complex you say with the addition of yet more emission related items. I'm not personally convinced that the FAP arrangement and burning what appears to be an unpleasant chemical to remove the 'collected' particles is ideal either. It seems (I am wrong probably) that all you're doing with these is 'saving' the pollution and then burning it in a different way, ie regen.

I thought perhaps the HPi units may make a return in some form, although I cannot recall ever looking at one in any detail its a shame the (apparent) issues were not ironed out these could of been a way to go if its going to be petrol.

Hybrid is an option too done sensibly. £7K batteries do not really appeal though.

I can very very vaguely recall reading that PSA did in the very early 90's (just before the 306 appeared) have some designs for a 'lean burn' unit to replace all the TU engines, but the EU tightened up the HC limits around that time and lean burn units tend to not do well on that area. Would like to know more about them actually.

Regarding the actual petrol / diesel choice, its going to be a general Europe thing I guess, how does the price vary generally ? As that is likely to effect manufacturers decisions I guess...

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spider
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Re: Diesel or petrol - long term prospects

Post by spider » 24 Apr 2015, 14:29

Slightly surprised no one has replied to this. :-k :)

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Re: Diesel or petrol - long term prospects

Post by Northern_Mike » 24 Apr 2015, 15:54

Our next long term car after the diesel Berlingo will be a Prius. I know a few people with them. The batteries are simply not an issue. Failures are virtually unheard of. My mate has one on an 08 plate with over 300,000 miles on it and all it ever needs is tyres, pads and a normal service now and again. It's only averaging 49mpg but it's either belting up the motorway or stuck in heavy London traffic so it's a pretty good average if you ask me. He's had it since new. The fact they're popular everywhere as taxis tells you all you need to know about reliability.

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Re: Diesel or petrol - long term prospects

Post by Xantianut » 27 Apr 2015, 12:29

Ay up!

After passing my test the 1st car I drove was a 1993 Xantia TD with a mere 3,000 miles on the clock and an interior no self respecting pig would be seen dead in! I loved it! So began my love affair with Citroens.

My 1st car was a BX 14E Leader but I then bought a BX19DTR. Horrible car, mainly because it had a worn out 1.7 engine that had been cunningly disguised to look like a 1.9 which rather put me off diesels. It was very sluggish, only coming "alive" around 4,000 to 4.500 rpm. Outside this range, very little, so I went back to petrol with a BX16TRS and Xantia 1.8LX of blessed memory.

I also drove a few old school diesel vans, with and without turbos and found the turbo versions easier to live with. When I drove a Ford TDCI I was pleasantly surprised so bought this C5 HDi. I love this, plenty of power when I need it and high 40s mpg. I've also noticed that this engine does not seem to clag as much as most do, the German diesels (VW, Merc and Audi) and Japanese being the worst.

Wolverhampton got some hybrid buses which have been a failure. The batteries in them only lasted 2 years and then they could not keep up with the schedule. Battery technology is getting better but IMHO we ain't there yet.

I'm pleasantly surprised by this diesel but, seeing as I dislike driving in London and prefer buses or taxis on my rare visits to the Metropolis, won't be an issue for me.

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Re: Diesel or petrol - long term prospects

Post by Zelandeth » 28 Apr 2015, 00:54

Northern_Mike wrote:Our next long term car after the diesel Berlingo will be a Prius. I know a few people with them. The batteries are simply not an issue. Failures are virtually unheard of. My mate has one on an 08 plate with over 300,000 miles on it and all it ever needs is tyres, pads and a normal service now and again. It's only averaging 49mpg but it's either belting up the motorway or stuck in heavy London traffic so it's a pretty good average if you ask me. He's had it since new. The fact they're popular everywhere as taxis tells you all you need to know about reliability.

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Another one to vouch for their reliability. My former manager had a first gen Prius which when I headed south in Dec 2014 was showing 485K on the clock.

Aside from routine servicing and consumables it had been utterly reliable. Only time the car was ever off the road was for a month in 2012...when someone ran into the back of it at a red light.

I was very plesently surprised driving it too. No, not a driver's car, but a very easy way to cover a vast distance. I would have preferred a bit more "squidge" in the seats, but that's normal for me (Renault 25 seats are my Holy Grail). Only downside we found in the seven years I knew the car was that on the standard tyres that it was beyond hopeless in ice or snow. Their other car was a Mazda RX-8 which are widely reputed as hopeless in the snow...the Prius was worse! Do yourself a favour and get some winter tyres!

As far as I know he still has it and it's still running like a Swiss watch.

Since then, they have bought another two...so the driveway sports red, white and blue Priuses...Prii...what's the plural on that?

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Re: Diesel or petrol - long term prospects

Post by daviemck2006 » 28 Apr 2015, 01:24

I'm always keeping an eye on the used car market, I have too much time, and can't remember even ever seeing a used prius for sale. Everyone must buy them and keep forever. The mechanic I used to use and retired two years ago bought a Honda jazz hybrid and says it's the best ever car he has owned, and he is going to keep it forever. If I had money something like that could be on my shopping list.

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Re: Diesel or petrol - long term prospects

Post by CitroJim » 28 Apr 2015, 04:25

Japanese cars do seem to have cracked the secret of reliability and long life. Shame a lot of them are so bland and uninspiring...

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Re: Diesel or petrol - long term prospects

Post by Northern_Mike » 28 Apr 2015, 04:53

CitroJim wrote:Japanese cars do seem to have cracked the secret of reliability and long life. Shame a lot of them are so bland and uninspiring...
I think the reliability is the problem Jim. This makes them boring.

Would a Xantia or XM be so interesting if it just worked, all the time, and you'd never so much as had to do anything other than service it, and had no reason to learn how it worked? The Prius, for example, is a far more complex beast than any Xantia after all...

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Re: Diesel or petrol - long term prospects

Post by Stickyfinger » 28 Apr 2015, 08:13

Northern_Mike wrote:The Prius, for example, is a far more complex beast than any Xantia after all...
Not if you are a Computer Geek mate....they think Oil is for Salad but they understand Electrickary

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Re: Diesel or petrol - long term prospects

Post by JohnD » 28 Apr 2015, 15:17

I've been driving diesels since 1981 when I bought a Ford Sierra with a 2.3 Pug engine in it. Yes - it was sluggish and noisy but 100% mechanical with no electrics on it. After 10 years of ownership I bought a new BX TZD Estate which I also kept for 10 years. (I believe the member who bought it still has it on SORN) A 2.1 Xantia followed the BX for eight years before getting a C5. Only then did I wish I could have bought a new 2.1 Xantia. My enthusiasm for diesel spilled over to the rest of the family,so for years we've had four PSA diesels. But now with the coming of blue-HDIs and restrictions in the pipeline on where they can and can't be used, I do wonder if we won't see the decline of the DERV.

PS. I had my daughter's Peugeot 306 in for MOT last Friday. She's had it from 18 months old and still only with 48K on the clock. After the test, the guy followed me out to ask if I was interested in selling... 8-)

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Re: Diesel or petrol - long term prospects

Post by DickieG » 28 Apr 2015, 16:37

The Toyota Pious is a popular minicab in London as it's not subject to the congestion charge, personally I think they are one of the most unappealing devices used for transport, the design is bland in the extreme and reminds me of looking at white goods, which is pretty much the case for all cars designed in the east, can't se myself ever buying anything transport wise from that part of the world.

As for the original topic of petrol v diesel, I say it's a difficult one to call as whilst the present political line is turning back to petrol, Euro 6 could change that back to diesel once the issue of particulates comes back into the headlines as the particulates from petrol engines are a quarter of the size of diesel ones so more easily absorbed into the body.

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Re: Diesel or petrol - long term prospects

Post by Northern_Mike » 28 Apr 2015, 17:57

DickieG wrote:The Toyota Pious is a popular minicab in London as it's not subject to the congestion charge, personally I think they are one of the most unappealing devices used for transport, the design is bland in the extreme and reminds me of looking at white goods, which is pretty much the case for all cars designed in the east, can't se myself ever buying anything transport wise from that part of the world.
I didn't say it was appealing, I said it was reliable and economical. For Mrs N_M, who likes such things - she's allergic to petrol stations, doesn't like changing gear, likes lots of toys, doesn't like spending money on repairs any more (odd - when we had no money, she never minded. Now we do.. she doesn't!) Before she met me, all her cars had been Japanese.

I'd like a Skyline GT-R. I was having (again) that "what car would you buy for fun if you won the lottery..?" That's what I'd buy. It may be impending old age, or tightness, but I've no interest in Ferraris or Porsches . I used to hanker after a 911 until I was lucky enough to drive a 2003 Carrera 4.

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Re: Diesel or petrol - long term prospects

Post by Northern_Mike » 28 Apr 2015, 18:01

JohnD wrote:I've been driving diesels since 1981 when I bought a Ford Sierra with a 2.3 Pug engine in it
I bought a diesel Passat MK3 in 2002, for reasons of economy. It was noisy, horrid and not fast. I bought a diesel Xantia, and had a few other diesels purely for the reasons of economy and ability to run on veg ( 2 XMs, 2 ZXs, 3 Xantias on veg) then later the HDi cars (Xantia, C5, Berlingo). They're ok, but I prefer a petrol engine over any diesel, any day. Now modern ones are costing similar to run, I'll not have another diesel.

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Re: Diesel or petrol - long term prospects

Post by MikeT » 29 Apr 2015, 12:39

Supreme court orders UK to draw up air pollution cleanup plan http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... eanup-plan" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"UK’s failure to meet EU limits on nitrogen dioxide must be tackled, court rules in case brought by NGO ClientEarth over government’s failure to act...London’s air quality has for many years fallen below the minimum standards set by the European Union, and the UK’s supreme court judges on Wednesday said they must be upheld, particularly in regard to nitrogen dioxide....The panel of five judges ordered that “the government must prepare and consult on new air quality plans for submission to the European commission ... no later than 31 December 2015”.