C5 front-to-rear hydraulic pipe

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RustyUK
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C5 front-to-rear hydraulic pipe

Post by RustyUK »

Greetings all.

A year and 9 days ago, I had a local pug indy replace the front-to-rear suspension pipe on my '01 C5. Apparantly it had corroded somewhere near the front.

To my horror it looks this morning like the same thing has happened, in the same place, just after the pipe bends up out of view into the engine bay, fluid lost all over the driveway again.

So what to do. I could yell at the garage, but they've no obligation to put this right. I consider them incompetent too (they refit the height correcter the wrong way round last time, which is probably why they used an additional 3 litres of LDS to 'bleed' it through, on top fo the 2 litres I provided, and IMO they damaged a CV joint doing a lower balljoint replacement on my partner's 307, but hard to prove).

I coud spend hundreds of pounds again getting it transported to Bradford (I live south of Wakefield) to get fixed at the only good indy citroen place I know of, but that's probably too much good money after bad.

Or maybe I could replace it myself. What I'm asking is, jacked up on a driveway, does anyone know if this is even feasable? My guess is probably not (this looks like one continous, presumably pre-formed pipe, but I'm not sure).

The only other viable option I see is scrap the car, but that's emotionally quite difficult too!
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Re: C5 front-to-rear hydraulic pipe

Post by BX »

Anyone who ever replaced a rigid brake pipe on any make or type of vehicle should be able to do this. I once did one using a trolly jack and axle stands, after a car had what is called in rally parlance "an off". Its 10 years ago so I do not remember much detail but it wasn't difficult. Unplug the power lead from the hydraulic pump before you start and replace it when you finish. If the pump doesn't start running when reconnected, start the engine and put the height control to maximum.The rear bleeder can be left open until fluid flows out clean. A full refill is about 4 Litres. There is far too much unjustified hocus pocus talk about these cars. Just be careful that it is very well supported before going under it.
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Re: C5 front-to-rear hydraulic pipe

Post by RustyUK »

I think, from what little I remember a year or so back, to replace this I need to drop the fuel tank, possibly rear subframe? Has anyone replaced this pipe here who could advise? It doesn't look quite as straightforward as a brake pipe (although that's one thing I've never replaced yet either).

Rear hassle aside, before I consider buying anything, I'm just wondering if it's even physically possible. It looks like I'd need to manoeuvre the pipe up into the engine bay from beneath, probably easy if the car's several feet in the air. Looks maybe impossible otherwise, but I'm really unsure at the moment.

Fortunately I bought alternative transport just last week, so at least there's not the stress of having no car this time! I've managed to remove and rebuild the C5's engine etc before now, so I'd like to have a crack at this, if it's possible on the floor. At the moment it looks like the most daunting thing I've had to do. It'll be a trolley jack, axle stands, wood, bricks, etc.
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Re: C5 front-to-rear hydraulic pipe

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

I have no first hand C5 knowledge or experience to assist, but I have repaired a front-rear pipe on a Xantia using a "joiner" like this.

Image

It may be possible to do a similar thing on the C5, but it will need the right joiner, and ends, and a tool to make a couple of appropriate "flares" in situ on the pipe ends for the particular diameter of pipe.

The thread is here

Regards Neil
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RustyUK
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Re: C5 front-to-rear hydraulic pipe

Post by RustyUK »

Could be a neat solution, but having never done that it's beyond my skills :( Especially in such confined space.

I've located the issue, it appears to have failed where the pipe bends upwards from underneath, as it passes through a clip:

Image

I can't really work out what's going on there. Things appear dry above the clip (from a video taken on my phone, and that's difficult enough!)

At this point I'm really wondering if the garage who replaced it made a balls of the job. I've never heard of a hydraulic pipe failing like this (or so soon), and days out of warranty or not, wondering if I should have some grounds to get them to fix it anyway? That's nearly £400 (with transport fee) and an entire car down the crapper only 374 days later!
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Re: C5 front-to-rear hydraulic pipe

Post by Peter.N. »

I have repaired several pipes on XMs by just replacing the leaking section, much easier than replacing the whole thing, just trace the pipe back to somewhere that you can get hold of it, cut it and replace the middle bit.

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Re: C5 front-to-rear hydraulic pipe

Post by jgra1 »

Sorry to hear about this rusty :(

If you can rebuild an hdi engine ypu should be ok with this although I have no knowledge of the job. My experience us hyd pipes always look/ seem worse than they turn out to be.. and you have time on your side. If you can get whole thing off carefully .. get a local to remake it with a new section maybe . And then refit both pipes separately and do them up .. dunno :o

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Re: C5 front-to-rear hydraulic pipe

Post by RustyUK »

Humm, now I know where the leak is, it's tempting to try myself. There's a few inches of accessible straight pipe underneath the car, and I can remove and join the top section quite easily. I'll need a 3.5mm pipe flaring tool I can use in-situ under the car. Can anyone point me to such a tool, and the pipe? Good experience to have if I can manage it, I've never repaired hydraulic/brake pipes etc before, but it seems easy.

I've not read about anyone cutting and joining LDS pipes on this forum (or anywhere) yet, I don't know if that means there's something different about these pipes compared to the old LHM ones? I've seen pipework for sale that's meant to be LHM only, That does worry me a little!
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Re: C5 front-to-rear hydraulic pipe

Post by Peter.N. »

Mine were on LHM but I don't think there is anything special about the pipe unless its a different size. I have the tool and fittings for doing XM pipes but don't know if its the same.

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Re: C5 front-to-rear hydraulic pipe

Post by RustyUK »

I've been in contact with eurocarcare.net, who've explained while the fittings are all compatible, the issue is the seals. Rubber seals suitable for mineral LHM are no good for synthetic LDS, which uses silicone. They do a good price on the full length pipe, if I dare attempt that route...
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Re: C5 front-to-rear hydraulic pipe

Post by Peter.N. »

Ah right. I had forgotton about the seals. :oops:
citronut
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Re: C5 front-to-rear hydraulic pipe

Post by citronut »

do you know were this pipe goes from and to, i had a quick look on service citroen at rear end supply piping, thew two that feed the rear cylinders seem to be 16mm diameter, whilst the front to rear and a curly pipe are 3.5mm
Regards, malcolm.

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Re: C5 front-to-rear hydraulic pipe

Post by RustyUK »

I know it runs from the front of the BHI, around and under the engine mount, then disappears downwards out of sight into a very tight space, emerging underneath the car (the point at which it's burst, just before it bends to run underneath). Then it runs along a duct alongside other pipework. I can't remember what happens at the rear exactly. I think it runs over the fuel tank (grrr) then must couple onto the curly wurly pipe, according to the diagram:

Image

Of course the rear is on the floor at the moment (trolley jack is elsewhere) so I can't inspect for a day or so.

The pipe's clearly visible at the front ( https://picasaweb.google.com/1118852572 ... 1423488210" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ), the more I look at where it disappears into ( https://picasaweb.google.com/1118852572 ... 2569653522" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; the black cover) the more I wonder how they ever replaced it at all!

It looks like silicone seals aren't available, which is probably why I've not read about anyone cutting and joining LDS pipes :( There is a coupling used elsewhere (5280R3) - don't know if it comes with seals (I can guess not).

Looks like my only option is going to be full replacement, I can drive the front up onto wheel ramps and jack up the rear onto wood etc for as much lift/stability as possible, but whether it's still physically possible to weave the complicated thing into place close to the ground is unknown. Honestly, the more I look at this, the more I think removing and rebuilding the engine was a piece of cake by comparison.
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Re: C5 front-to-rear hydraulic pipe

Post by citronut »

i think this might be the poipe seals

i just looked under on service citroen

"Suspension"

then

"PIPING BRACKETS"

5280 P9
WATER-TIGHTNESS SEAL
DIAM 10
5280 Y2
SUSPENSION CYLINDER O-RING
DIAM 10 MM

5280 Q0
SUSPENSION CYLINDER O-RING
DIAM 3,4 TOR 1,9

5280 V9
SUSPENSION CYLINDER O-RING
DIAM 4,75 MM

5280 Y3
HYDRAULIC TUBE RING
DIAM 10 MM
Regards, malcolm.

current ride a BX 1.7 TZD estate
1986 MK1 BX 1.9na D Auto(in Mothman Andy's stable )
layed up roppy 1.9TD XANT estate, now gone to meet her maker
purple and lilac metalic 2CV(VIOLET)registered to her in doors
1972 DS special been layed up aprox 31 years
RustyUK
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Re: C5 front-to-rear hydraulic pipe

Post by RustyUK »

Looks like I'll be attempting the whole pipe change myself, when the weather's a little better. And unlike the last cowboys I'll make sure it's fixed properly so can't happen again.

Rang the garage today who did the job last year, informed warranty is only six months (is that legal, even for new parts? I honestly don't know, assumed 12 months). What irks me more is that although trading under the same name, one of the two partners retired late last year, the company was dissolved and a new one created. The remaining partner hid behind the exuse of "it's a new business now, we have nothing to do with the old one, you can see my point can't you, it's a different business". Despite agreeing this should not happen so soon, wouldn't even meet me half way if I bought the parts and they just covered the labour.

It's probably against the rules of this forum to name and shame so I won't, but this is a good illustration why I have little faith in any garage >: It's hard to trust other people can do anything right.
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