206 1.9D (DW8) swap to XUD9TE (DHX)
Moderator: RichardW
206 1.9D (DW8) swap to XUD9TE (DHX)
Hi, 1st of all, my native language is not english, so i apologize if i make any mistakes.
I found this forum and i realize that lots of people here understand a lot of the old engines.
So, lets start
I have a 206 1.9D DW8 the one with no ECU on it, recently after 360k km's head gasket just said it had enough.
a friend of mine had 406 1.9TD XUD9TE (DHX) complete car for parts and gave me the complete engine.
After some research found out that is is changeable, a few mods to do but changeable.
my 1st problem just arrived.
injection pump.
DW8 is lucas and DHX is Bosch, both have immobilizer that i've manage to take apart, on both, so that is fixed. my idea is to change the DW8 imo to the bosch and keep having it.
the bosch have a pedal position sensor on the top ? that i took a part too.
pic:
useless to the 206.
now... i have another plug:
the brown one. that connect to the bottom of the pump:
it i my understating that this as to do something with timing advance ? is this necessary ? my DW8 pump has two plugs on it too, one for imo another to ?
probably timming advance to ?
can somebody tell me more about this ? get some electric schematics from Dw8 (non ecu) and the 406 ?
here some more pictures of the 406 pump:
I found this forum and i realize that lots of people here understand a lot of the old engines.
So, lets start
I have a 206 1.9D DW8 the one with no ECU on it, recently after 360k km's head gasket just said it had enough.
a friend of mine had 406 1.9TD XUD9TE (DHX) complete car for parts and gave me the complete engine.
After some research found out that is is changeable, a few mods to do but changeable.
my 1st problem just arrived.
injection pump.
DW8 is lucas and DHX is Bosch, both have immobilizer that i've manage to take apart, on both, so that is fixed. my idea is to change the DW8 imo to the bosch and keep having it.
the bosch have a pedal position sensor on the top ? that i took a part too.
pic:
useless to the 206.
now... i have another plug:
the brown one. that connect to the bottom of the pump:
it i my understating that this as to do something with timing advance ? is this necessary ? my DW8 pump has two plugs on it too, one for imo another to ?
probably timming advance to ?
can somebody tell me more about this ? get some electric schematics from Dw8 (non ecu) and the 406 ?
here some more pictures of the 406 pump:
Last edited by madinfo on 15 Oct 2014, 16:07, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Donor 2023
- Posts: 13745
- Joined: 01 Apr 2012, 09:47
- Location: Reading
- My Cars: C5 Mk2 VTX+ estate.
- x 3008
Re: 206 1.9D (DW8) swap to XUD9TE (DHX)
Hello, and welcome to the forum. Your English is better than some of the English members on here!
I am not going to be able to help you, but there are others who will be able to offer good advise. You have done well with good photographs and clear explanations.
I am not going to be able to help you, but there are others who will be able to offer good advise. You have done well with good photographs and clear explanations.
James
ex BX 1.9
ex Xantia 2.0HDi SX
ex Xantia 2.0HDi LX
Ex C5 2.0HDi VTR
Ex C5 2.0HDi VTR
C5 2.2HDi VTX+
Yes, I am paranoid, but am I paranoid ENOUGH?
Out amongst the stars, looking for a world of my own!
ex BX 1.9
ex Xantia 2.0HDi SX
ex Xantia 2.0HDi LX
Ex C5 2.0HDi VTR
Ex C5 2.0HDi VTR
C5 2.2HDi VTX+
Yes, I am paranoid, but am I paranoid ENOUGH?
Out amongst the stars, looking for a world of my own!
- CitroJim
- A very naughty boy
- Posts: 49662
- Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
- Location: Paggers
- My Cars: Bluebell the AX, Polly the C3 Picasso, Pix the Nissan Pixo, Propel the duathlon bike, TCR Pro the road bike and Fuji the TT bike...
- x 6208
- Contact:
Re: 206 1.9D (DW8) swap to XUD9TE (DHX)
Welcome Madinfo
The pump swap is not going to work without a great deal of work I'm sorry to say.
The immobilisers won't swap between pumps for starters and the Bosch pump requires it's own ECU to function. The Bosch is the AS3 model which is a semi-electronic pump which has electronic timing control. Your last picture shows the timing actuator.
I would suggest you use the old DW8 Lucas pump on the XUD but the problem is the donor engine you have is turbocharged and I believe the DW8 is normally aspirated. This means that if you used the Lucas pump on the XUD the timing would be wrong and the fuelling inadequate on boost.
If you want to use the Bosch pump you will need to use it with an ECU designed for it as otherwise although the engine will run it will run badly due to the timing being stuck fully-retarded.
Wiring in the correct ECU is certainly possible and wiring diagrams can be made available to assist you. The ECU also controls the glow plugs and you'll also need the matching glow plug controller/relay.
Whatever, you'll be unable to use the immobiliser module on the Bosch pump and you must bypass it.
The alternative is to obtain a suitable Lucas pump from an early UK production Peugeot 306 D Turbo. It used the same XUD engine. You'll aso need the injectors and delivery pipes if you follow this route as the Lucas and Bosch items are not compatible.
The XUD engine pump cradle will accommodate both types of pump. There is a second set of tapped holes on the cradle flange face around 15 degrees away from the ones used by the Bosch Pump. Just undo the studs and screw them into the alternative holes.
As you're planning to use a turbo engine have you given consideration to the need for an intercooler, different exhaust and totally different gearbox gear ratios?
Hope that helps a bit...
The pump swap is not going to work without a great deal of work I'm sorry to say.
The immobilisers won't swap between pumps for starters and the Bosch pump requires it's own ECU to function. The Bosch is the AS3 model which is a semi-electronic pump which has electronic timing control. Your last picture shows the timing actuator.
I would suggest you use the old DW8 Lucas pump on the XUD but the problem is the donor engine you have is turbocharged and I believe the DW8 is normally aspirated. This means that if you used the Lucas pump on the XUD the timing would be wrong and the fuelling inadequate on boost.
If you want to use the Bosch pump you will need to use it with an ECU designed for it as otherwise although the engine will run it will run badly due to the timing being stuck fully-retarded.
Wiring in the correct ECU is certainly possible and wiring diagrams can be made available to assist you. The ECU also controls the glow plugs and you'll also need the matching glow plug controller/relay.
Whatever, you'll be unable to use the immobiliser module on the Bosch pump and you must bypass it.
The alternative is to obtain a suitable Lucas pump from an early UK production Peugeot 306 D Turbo. It used the same XUD engine. You'll aso need the injectors and delivery pipes if you follow this route as the Lucas and Bosch items are not compatible.
The XUD engine pump cradle will accommodate both types of pump. There is a second set of tapped holes on the cradle flange face around 15 degrees away from the ones used by the Bosch Pump. Just undo the studs and screw them into the alternative holes.
As you're planning to use a turbo engine have you given consideration to the need for an intercooler, different exhaust and totally different gearbox gear ratios?
Hope that helps a bit...
Jim
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Re: 206 1.9D (DW8) swap to XUD9TE (DHX)
I am counting to have some work to get it doneCitroJim wrote: The pump swap is not going to work without a great deal of work I'm sorry to say.
Well there is no rule that the immobilizer needs to be fitted on the pump itself i know that they are different so it will stay somewhere on the engine bay. (or bypassed it depends on the day that i've put that on)CitroJim wrote: The immobilisers won't swap between pumps for starters and the Bosch pump requires it's own ECU to function. The Bosch is the AS3 model which is a semi-electronic pump which has electronic timing control. Your last picture shows the timing actuator.
about the timming control. i think my DW8 as it too... i will take a pic. it as a strange actuator on the back.
using a picture that u've posted:
mine as a actuator in the orange spot that is why i needed the diagrams to find out what is that.
my DW8 pump is unusable. it is normal aspirated.CitroJim wrote: I would suggest you use the old DW8 Lucas pump on the XUD but the problem is the donor engine you have is turbocharged and I believe the DW8 is normally aspirated. This means that if you used the Lucas pump on the XUD the timing would be wrong and the fuelling inadequate on boost.
I prefer to keep non ECU... less drama less wires... even then i have the ECU and wire harness from donor car.CitroJim wrote: If you want to use the Bosch pump you will need to use it with an ECU designed for it as otherwise although the engine will run it will run badly due to the timing being stuck fully-retarded.
Wiring in the correct ECU is certainly possible and wiring diagrams can be made available to assist you. The ECU also controls the glow plugs and you'll also need the matching glow plug controller/relay.
I will try to find some other bosch pump... at the scrap yard. i would prefer to use a bosch.CitroJim wrote: Whatever, you'll be unable to use the immobiliser module on the Bosch pump and you must bypass it.
The alternative is to obtain a suitable Lucas pump from an early UK production Peugeot 306 D Turbo. It used the same XUD engine. You'll aso need the injectors and delivery pipes if you follow this route as the Lucas and Bosch items are not compatible.
found out that too here on the forum.CitroJim wrote: The XUD engine pump cradle will accommodate both types of pump. There is a second set of tapped holes on the cradle flange face around 15 degrees away from the ones used by the Bosch Pump. Just undo the studs and screw them into the alternative holes.
I know intercooler is on the plans exhaust needs to be done, gear box will keep the DW8 one... it is a bit shorter but no trouble on that.CitroJim wrote: As you're planning to use a turbo engine have you given consideration to the need for an intercooler, different exhaust and totally different gearbox gear ratios?
Hope that helps a bit...
- CitroJim
- A very naughty boy
- Posts: 49662
- Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
- Location: Paggers
- My Cars: Bluebell the AX, Polly the C3 Picasso, Pix the Nissan Pixo, Propel the duathlon bike, TCR Pro the road bike and Fuji the TT bike...
- x 6208
- Contact:
Re: 206 1.9D (DW8) swap to XUD9TE (DHX)
Excellent You have the project well thought out., Yes, if you run the immobiliser outboard from the pump then it'll work as longa s the4 current draw of the Bosch and Lucas stop solenoids are similar.
If you want a non-ECU Bosch, look for a Bosch VP20 from a pre-1996 XUD engine. Early Citroen Xantias or Peugeot 405s are good donors. The VP20 looks almost identical to the AS3 and is a direct swap. I've done a few now... The mid-season Citroen XM 2.1TD also had a Bosch VP20 which could be used too... Early and late XMs had Lucas pumps...
The timing device on a Lucas pump will not be compatible with the Bosch pump as they work on a different principle..
I was going to ask what you were doing with the Citroen suspension spheres in the picture of the Lucas pump above before realising it was a picture of MY workbench!!!
I'm keen to follow your work on this and any advice I can gibe I will be very pleased to
If you want a non-ECU Bosch, look for a Bosch VP20 from a pre-1996 XUD engine. Early Citroen Xantias or Peugeot 405s are good donors. The VP20 looks almost identical to the AS3 and is a direct swap. I've done a few now... The mid-season Citroen XM 2.1TD also had a Bosch VP20 which could be used too... Early and late XMs had Lucas pumps...
The timing device on a Lucas pump will not be compatible with the Bosch pump as they work on a different principle..
I was going to ask what you were doing with the Citroen suspension spheres in the picture of the Lucas pump above before realising it was a picture of MY workbench!!!
I'm keen to follow your work on this and any advice I can gibe I will be very pleased to
Jim
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Re: 206 1.9D (DW8) swap to XUD9TE (DHX)
do you have any VP20 laying around ? those old cars are getting difficult to find over here...
Anyway is it possible to add the timming device from an VP20 to a AS3 ?
Anyway is it possible to add the timming device from an VP20 to a AS3 ?
- CitroJim
- A very naughty boy
- Posts: 49662
- Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
- Location: Paggers
- My Cars: Bluebell the AX, Polly the C3 Picasso, Pix the Nissan Pixo, Propel the duathlon bike, TCR Pro the road bike and Fuji the TT bike...
- x 6208
- Contact:
Re: 206 1.9D (DW8) swap to XUD9TE (DHX)
No, sadly not, my stock is all gone now Mostly used in conversions from AS3 to VP20.madinfo wrote:do you have any VP20 laying around ? those old cars are getting difficult to find over here...
You could try a wanted advert on here perhaps... There were a lot of diesel Xantias and 405s sold in the UK.
No, the castings are different. If you had a scrap VP20 you could rebuild one using the majority of the mechanical components from an AS3...madinfo wrote:Anyway is it possible to add the timing device from an VP20 to a AS3 ?
Jim
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Re: 206 1.9D (DW8) swap to XUD9TE (DHX)
I am not feeling comfortable to open a injection pump.
I am trying to find a xantia or 405. i have the engine almost rebuild soon.
I am trying to find a xantia or 405. i have the engine almost rebuild soon.
Re: 206 1.9D (DW8) swap to XUD9TE (DHX)
Can you get me the bosch part number of a VP20 ?
- CitroJim
- A very naughty boy
- Posts: 49662
- Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
- Location: Paggers
- My Cars: Bluebell the AX, Polly the C3 Picasso, Pix the Nissan Pixo, Propel the duathlon bike, TCR Pro the road bike and Fuji the TT bike...
- x 6208
- Contact:
Re: 206 1.9D (DW8) swap to XUD9TE (DHX)
They're not that bad. I've published a bit of a guide on my website...madinfo wrote:I am not feeling comfortable to open a injection pump.
The main thing to remember is you must work in a very clean workshop. If you are happy to rebuild an engine you'll be fine with a pump. Just treat it like a little engine
Jim
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Re: 206 1.9D (DW8) swap to XUD9TE (DHX)
CitroJim wrote: The timing device on a Lucas pump will not be compatible with the Bosch pump as they work on a different principle..
can you explain this ? they both have a actuator ( 2 wires) so on and off ? if i connect the wires that go to the pump from the car to the new pump it willdo the same no ?
- CitroJim
- A very naughty boy
- Posts: 49662
- Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
- Location: Paggers
- My Cars: Bluebell the AX, Polly the C3 Picasso, Pix the Nissan Pixo, Propel the duathlon bike, TCR Pro the road bike and Fuji the TT bike...
- x 6208
- Contact:
Re: 206 1.9D (DW8) swap to XUD9TE (DHX)
No, because it is very unlikely Bosch and Lucas will use the same signal protocols to control the actuator. Bosch use a PWM signal. Also inernally the way the pumps achieve timing adjustment is different.
Fundamentally you can only use Bosch ancillaries with a Bosch pump and vice-versa.
Sent from my Lumia 900 using Tapatalk
Fundamentally you can only use Bosch ancillaries with a Bosch pump and vice-versa.
Sent from my Lumia 900 using Tapatalk
Jim
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Re: 206 1.9D (DW8) swap to XUD9TE (DHX)
I am getting in trouble to find a VP20...
-
- Donor 2023
- Posts: 13745
- Joined: 01 Apr 2012, 09:47
- Location: Reading
- My Cars: C5 Mk2 VTX+ estate.
- x 3008
Re: 206 1.9D (DW8) swap to XUD9TE (DHX)
Does this help?;
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Peugeot-Citro ... 19f4dd7112" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Peugeot-Citro ... 19f4dd7112" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
James
ex BX 1.9
ex Xantia 2.0HDi SX
ex Xantia 2.0HDi LX
Ex C5 2.0HDi VTR
Ex C5 2.0HDi VTR
C5 2.2HDi VTX+
Yes, I am paranoid, but am I paranoid ENOUGH?
Out amongst the stars, looking for a world of my own!
ex BX 1.9
ex Xantia 2.0HDi SX
ex Xantia 2.0HDi LX
Ex C5 2.0HDi VTR
Ex C5 2.0HDi VTR
C5 2.2HDi VTX+
Yes, I am paranoid, but am I paranoid ENOUGH?
Out amongst the stars, looking for a world of my own!
Re: 206 1.9D (DW8) swap to XUD9TE (DHX)
its an AS3, and it doesn't ship to portugal...