Replacing of BOSCH diesel pump in Xantia 1,9TD

[Albireo]

Hi! my car .: (Xantia 1,9TD BOSCH dieselpump, aut, -00)
Have ended up in a rather difficult situation. Didn't know better ...

Made in the following manner:
- The pulley on the old diesel pump, locked with two bolts.
- The old diesel pump was then screwed out of the car.
- The old immobilizer was moved to the "new" pump
- Assembled in the new diesel pump in the car.

Since I also locked the pump wheel on the donor car, the diesel pump spline is fit pretty good when the pump was installed in this car.
(so far so good)

When the car starts up. It "knocks" very hard and Lexia says 28 degrees constant pre-ignition - even at idle.
The pump can be adjusted a few centimeter forward and back - but no difference.

Is there any way to "reset" the whole system, and get the pump in the right position?
ie 1. First the crankshaft in the correct position (Can be no marking on the crankshaft)
2. Lock the pump wheel with screws.
3 Rotating the pump in right position
4th and fit it all together

//Jan

[CitroJim]

H Jan,

That is not good news

Two questions.

1. Is the replacement pump identical to the old? Do the Bosch part numbers match?

2. Are you sure the woodruff key on the driveshaft is in place? The one that locks the drive pulley (sprocket) to the pump drive shaft. I know from my own experience that this key has a nasty habit of jumping out when you are trying to refit the pump.

[Albireo]

1. Is the replacement pump identical to the old? Do the Bosch part numbers match?

Yes!

2. Are you sure the woodruff key on the driveshaft is in place? The one that locks the drive pulley (sprocket) to the pump drive shaft. I know from my own experience that this key has a nasty habit of jumping out when you are trying to refit the pump.

Yes!

//Jan

[CitroJim]

OK, good. I must now go away and think...

[MikeT]

Something tells me the pump shaft needs to be rotated once but I can't recall/confirm why from memory.

[CitroJim]

Something tells me the pump shaft needs to be rotated once but I can't recall/confirm why from memory.

I can't think why Mike but I do know the position of the shaft for installation is right on the crest of a pump 'compression' ad this can make it jolly tricky to get all lined up and to keep that pesky woodruff key where it belongs

[MikeT]

Is it not something to do with the crank turning twice per pump rotation (or is that vice versa)? Probably wrong but there's always the option to reset everything from scratch and see what happens

[CitroJim]

Ahh, I see what you mean now Mike

With the crank, cam and pump sprockets properly pinned in their timing positions there is only one position for the pump drive shaft. If it were 180 degrees out it wouldn't run at all. The fact the engine runs, albeit, badly, shows the timing is almost good..

Jan, I'd carefully check that the pump is properly in time with respect to the cam and crankshaft. I have known a pump be some way out of time with respect to the cam and crank and for it to run but incredibly badly.

Jan, do you know if the replacement pump was OK previously and how long had the pump been unused? I have known Bosch pumps that have been out of use for some months to have a completely seized timing device and if your new pump has been out of use for some time and not well stored this could well have happened.

I always advise that before a pump is put into use it should be given an overhaul first, especially if you do not know its recent history.

[Peter.N.]

I suppose the belt couldn't have slipped a notch?

Peter

[CitroJim]

I suppose the belt couldn't have slipped a notch?

It's a very good possibility Peter and something that needs to be checked...

[Northern_Mike]

I suppose the belt couldn't have slipped a notch?

Peter

I agree. Sounds like the symptoms I had when I did the timing belt on my 1.9TD back in 2004 when I first got a Xantia.

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

[evilally]

I did this very job on my 406 on Sunday. Sounds to me like the NLS hasn't been reconnected? The pump will default to +20 degrees static timing and the thing will run like a bag of spanners. Are the pump electrics correctly plugged in? There are 3 sockets, one for the load sensor, one for the immobiliser and one for the timing device. I noticed on my replacement pump that the load sensor and timing device sockets were switched around. Possibly these have been reconnected in the wrong order? Compare with old pump.

[Albireo]

...With the crank, cam and pump sprockets properly pinned in their timing positions there is only one position for the pump drive shaft I'd carefully check that the pump is properly in time with respect to the cam and crankshaft. I have known a pump be some way out of time with respect to the cam and crank and for it to run but incredibly badly....

The only thing I locked with the M8 x 40mm bolt, was the diesel pump pulley, to not have to install the timing belt from the beginning.
Where can I find the timing position on the crankshaft? (automatic transmission)
The timing position on the cam, is it behind the top plastic cover?

...do you know if the replacement pump was OK previously and how long had the pump been unused? I have known Bosch pumps that have been out of use for some months to have a completely seized timing device and if your new pump has been out of use for some time and not well stored this could well have happened.

Hmmm. I have no idea. Reportedly, the donor car have gone 70000 km before it was scrapped. The engine ran fine (but the turbo was out).
I do not know how many years ago, the donor car was scrapped. (it was the previous owner that trashed a donor car)
I've only owned the car, with many reserve parts, a few months.
The car I try to start, has run 350000 km
(with the problem I have described on another link http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... =3&t=49519)

I always advise that before a pump is put into use it should be given an overhaul first, especially if you do not know its recent history.

I felt it a little too exciting to unbolt the pump, and did not understand what I could improve. Above all, make the settings required for it to work again.

I don't have so many special tools, than a wrench and a screwdriver
Thinking right now how the key ring shall be designed to be able to screw the lower bolt on the diesel pump, without disconnect the hydraulic pump and tensioner for the multi strap.
_________________________________________

...Sounds to me like the NLS hasn't been reconnected? The pump will default to +20 degrees static timing and the thing will run like a bag of spanners. Are the pump electrics correctly plugged in? There are 3 sockets, one for the load sensor, one for the immobiliser and one for the timing device. I noticed on my replacement pump that the load sensor and timing device sockets were switched around....

What is NLS? Where does it fit?
I can see one more time, but I do not think it is possible to confuse the three connections - they have different colors and designs.
One thing is better with the "new" diesel pump - the engine lamp doesn't light. (even if the engine runs badly)

I do not know if there are more electrical faults on this vehicle.
___________________________________________

If I have understood correctly, the pump can only be mounted right or one turn wrong. (and it´s not one turn wrong)
When you look at the timing belt, it lies at the top of the diesel pump sprocket. (Note in the middle) I have no idea if it is correct.

//and again, thanks for your answer - Jan

[CitroJim]

Jan,

I'd check the timing from scratch given the history of problems. To set the engine in time remove the cam covers enough to expose the pump and cam sprockets.

Take a piece of copper brake pipe around 30cm long and bend into an 'L' shape. Find the timing hole behind the starter motor and oil filling pipe for the flywheel. Insert teh 'L' shaped brake pipe into the hole just found and slowly rotate the engine clockwise until the pipe slips into the timing hole in the flywheel.

Look at the cam and pump sprockets and they should now be in alignment with their corresponding timing holes. The pump sprocket has two.

If by some chance they are 180 degrees wrong, withdraw the crankshaft lock a little and slowly rotate again until the flywheel timing hole is found again. The cam and pump timing holes should now line up.

If they nearly line up than that's not good enough. They must line up exactly with the crankshaft locked.

It is hard to explain in words but if you have a Haynes Workshop Manual for the car then it will have some good pictures of how to set the timing under the instructions for replacing the cam belt.

If this timing is out of alignment then the pump timing will be unable to correctly set under ECU control and will end up appearing to be fixed.

If you need to reset the timing always work from the locked crankshaft as the reference and move either the cam, pump or both into time. This will entail removing and replacing the cambelt.


NLS - Needle Lift Sensor - which has already been discussed.

[Albireo]

Thanks for your support
The car is approx 80km away in a garage. Will go there on Friday next time.

Will try to check, that the settings on the crankshaft, cam and diesel pump is correct.
But I do not know why it would discord, the timing belt has been locked all the time at the diesel pump.
Is there any way to check the diesel pump is in the correct position out of the car (without cam belt)?

Is there a possibility that the "new" pump has been disassembled and assembled wrong?
Should I just move (the Imobilizer back again) and the electrical sensor in the bottom of the new pump to the old pump, and it would work?
Is it possible to check this sensor?
(the old pump had maybe a problem getting the correct pressure, engine light would illuminate on low speed.)

//Jan