Older Cars Example (M reg)
Moderator: RichardW
Older Cars Example (M reg)
Had my zx serviced yesterday. Was talking to the mechanic when I picked up the car and he said some jobs like heads gaskets arent worth doing on older cars, and its best to chuck them away when they go wrong. Whats everyone opinon on this statement which I think is Bulls***.
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oilyspanner
- Posts: 1246
- Joined: 26 Oct 2003, 16:08
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars:
Sounds like a Mechanic scared of hard work, we all know that pug/cit motors can do a head gasket if you dont notice a coolant leak etc (esp BX with the lights and no temp indication) but properly fixed they can easily give good service, theres also the spares availability to consider, My boss who drives a new Impretza asked me why I stick with my old BX I told him I bought it for £250 five years ago and have not had an on road breakdown in 50,000 miles, how much had his Subaru thrown away in the last three months (slight envy)remember anything under £5000 is a banger these days, long live consumerism?
Stewart
Stewart
There's a view that all cheap used cars are in wonderful condition, fully sorted and will last forever, therefore when yours goes wrong all you do is pick up another one for a few pounds.
I think it all comes down to what you expect from the vehicle and what your interests are. For my part I know that whatever I buy is going to cost me some money at first while I get it 'broken in' and going the way I like it to. For example last year we bought a very nice ZX 1.9D with 53,500 miles on it. Within the first 6 weeks we had bought 2 new tyres, replaced the front brakes, thermostat, cambelt, radio mount and wiring, dashboard bulbs, full service, oil filters etc. as well as tracing and curing a leaky vent pipe on top of the fuel tank.
If you regard a car as disposable the question really is which defects can I live with and which one makes me change the vehicle. The result is that for a time you are driving round in a deteriorating vehicle waiting for something major to break so that you can throw it away. While this is happening is your vehicle comfortable, pleasant to drive and even more important as safe as it could be?
My own feeling is that if you like your car and its in reasonable condition you repair it properly and look after it well and with luck you will be rewarded with good and reliable service. My car BX TD estate - 191,000 miles and nearly sorted after 4 years!
jeremy
I think it all comes down to what you expect from the vehicle and what your interests are. For my part I know that whatever I buy is going to cost me some money at first while I get it 'broken in' and going the way I like it to. For example last year we bought a very nice ZX 1.9D with 53,500 miles on it. Within the first 6 weeks we had bought 2 new tyres, replaced the front brakes, thermostat, cambelt, radio mount and wiring, dashboard bulbs, full service, oil filters etc. as well as tracing and curing a leaky vent pipe on top of the fuel tank.
If you regard a car as disposable the question really is which defects can I live with and which one makes me change the vehicle. The result is that for a time you are driving round in a deteriorating vehicle waiting for something major to break so that you can throw it away. While this is happening is your vehicle comfortable, pleasant to drive and even more important as safe as it could be?
My own feeling is that if you like your car and its in reasonable condition you repair it properly and look after it well and with luck you will be rewarded with good and reliable service. My car BX TD estate - 191,000 miles and nearly sorted after 4 years!
jeremy
My zx has never let me down in all of it 81000 miles and i mean never. Even when it was poorly, dodge map sensor causing rough running and stalling, it still got us home from wales. All it needs know to make driving it more pleasant is the gear linkage sorting as its making the gearchange very notchy and very nasty. So im of to the local cit dealer to get a new linkage tomoz[:I].
Like most things with cars - it all depends. If my ZX blows a head gasket tomorrow it'll cost me a significant chunk of money (say £300 for arguments sake) to get it fixed. Once that's done I'll be a little poorer, but I'll have a car that I know the cooling system is OK on, plus I already know my car has a good bottom end, good gearbox, rust free body, new brakes, new exhaust, nice interior good tyres and good suspension. And it'll do 60 MPG. Of course I could spend the £300 on buying another car, but is it likely to be as good all round as my ZX? Unlikely.
It was a different story when my old XM needed £400 of repairs to put it back on the road after it had been laid up for a few years. I decided it was best to walk away from it, I felt it stood a good chance of becoming a money pit.
It was a different story when my old XM needed £400 of repairs to put it back on the road after it had been laid up for a few years. I decided it was best to walk away from it, I felt it stood a good chance of becoming a money pit.
Well -
In DK cars are a nuisance - because of the high initial costs.
UK£15,000 for a cheapo entrance C3 model is not exactly fun. Add to this the typical UK£350 for delivery costs.
Then it becomes a real bargain to find a UK£600 BX16 '89 - with a couple of months MOT left - and in anything better than disaster condition.
That's my present car - purchased from a private owner last year [:0]
This late spring the following work was done for MOT :
Rear suspension/brakes completely (!) rebuild.
Front inner wings welded - both sides.
Complete engine service - including carby overhaul (rep. kit).
New main pipe PR to safety valve.
Front brakes including caliper overhauls & new cables.
Rack gaiters & hardy disc.
Numerous electrical faults corrected - including blower fan overhaul - still the rear demist is NOT working despite resoldering glass connectors (demister threads wiped off glass by wear & tear).
The dreaded BX front struts groaning were lubed up (my own secret mix [;)]) - they are still working like new.
A rather deep dent in drivers door is still there from the previous owner (near the pillar in line with front wing end - how did he manage doing this ? - looks like an impact from another car - not the typical door strap failing problem).
A very disappointing engine oil "recycler" system was discovered - and INSTANTLY removed - frowning !
And YES - the engine IS indeed running VERY noisy - bul***s !
(but now runs silent again - after a "miracle" tephlone additive was added to the oil 2 months ago - that stuff really works wonders on disaster engines)
Spares & welding work summed up to approx UK£450.
Total of some UK£1050 - or less than half the yearly rates on the new C3 mentioned above (with 25% downpayment !)
Which you can NOT find a decent MOT'ed runner for at any s/h dealer here.
At purchase - the car had :
new tyres (max 1000miles)
repiped to stainless steel (except main pipe)
new windshield
Recent repairs :
New acc sphere (from 12sec's to past 2min's).
A leaking pipe union at rear 4-way - was a sheared pipe seal (wrong fitting method).
A split vacuum hose at carby (for choke strangler override) replaced.
It starts first off - even now with frosty temps - and returned some 60mpg during this late summer.
I louuuve my BX [8D]
In DK cars are a nuisance - because of the high initial costs.
UK£15,000 for a cheapo entrance C3 model is not exactly fun. Add to this the typical UK£350 for delivery costs.
Then it becomes a real bargain to find a UK£600 BX16 '89 - with a couple of months MOT left - and in anything better than disaster condition.
That's my present car - purchased from a private owner last year [:0]
This late spring the following work was done for MOT :
Rear suspension/brakes completely (!) rebuild.
Front inner wings welded - both sides.
Complete engine service - including carby overhaul (rep. kit).
New main pipe PR to safety valve.
Front brakes including caliper overhauls & new cables.
Rack gaiters & hardy disc.
Numerous electrical faults corrected - including blower fan overhaul - still the rear demist is NOT working despite resoldering glass connectors (demister threads wiped off glass by wear & tear).
The dreaded BX front struts groaning were lubed up (my own secret mix [;)]) - they are still working like new.
A rather deep dent in drivers door is still there from the previous owner (near the pillar in line with front wing end - how did he manage doing this ? - looks like an impact from another car - not the typical door strap failing problem).
A very disappointing engine oil "recycler" system was discovered - and INSTANTLY removed - frowning !
And YES - the engine IS indeed running VERY noisy - bul***s !
(but now runs silent again - after a "miracle" tephlone additive was added to the oil 2 months ago - that stuff really works wonders on disaster engines)
Spares & welding work summed up to approx UK£450.
Total of some UK£1050 - or less than half the yearly rates on the new C3 mentioned above (with 25% downpayment !)
Which you can NOT find a decent MOT'ed runner for at any s/h dealer here.
At purchase - the car had :
new tyres (max 1000miles)
repiped to stainless steel (except main pipe)
new windshield
Recent repairs :
New acc sphere (from 12sec's to past 2min's).
A leaking pipe union at rear 4-way - was a sheared pipe seal (wrong fitting method).
A split vacuum hose at carby (for choke strangler override) replaced.
It starts first off - even now with frosty temps - and returned some 60mpg during this late summer.
I louuuve my BX [8D]
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Jon
Hm, well.
In a way Citman's mechanic does have a point. When working at a Citroen workshop in the early 90's we'd have all sorts of older cars in with problems that were going to cost big bucks to sort out. An early BX 16 requiring head gasket, radiator and associated parts, plus rear arm bearings and bits for the MOT would have cost say £600 to put right, and the car would have been worth say £400 fixed. Faced with this, many owners just threw in the towell there and then, and left the car with us for next to nothing!
Obvioulsy if you are capable of doing these repairs yourself you're going to get cheap motoring! But when faced with paying out £100's on a car that has little financial value, I would think most people would give up. Theres also plenty of very cheap used cars about in the UK that can give good service if correctly maintained.
There are many of us on this Forum who cover large annual mileages in vehicles that are viewed as "bangers" by the Trade and (indeed) other drivers. I think that we have the last laugh as most of us seem to enjoy good reliability without the need for interest payments on loans in order to purchase new cars, plus we are free from the crushing loss that is depreciation. I have one old car (93 ZX TD) and one car that we bought new in Dec 01 (Berlingo Multispace). In this 2 year period the Berlingo has covered 20,000 miles and has costs us approx £4200 in depreciation.The ZX only cost a few hundred pounds and has covered 52,000 miles in the same 2 year period. No depreciation at all, and only normal costs such as tyres, servicing, brakes, timing belt etc. OK I did do the subframe mounts [:p]
Now, out of these two vehicles, guess which one has let us down..... [;)]
In a way Citman's mechanic does have a point. When working at a Citroen workshop in the early 90's we'd have all sorts of older cars in with problems that were going to cost big bucks to sort out. An early BX 16 requiring head gasket, radiator and associated parts, plus rear arm bearings and bits for the MOT would have cost say £600 to put right, and the car would have been worth say £400 fixed. Faced with this, many owners just threw in the towell there and then, and left the car with us for next to nothing!
Obvioulsy if you are capable of doing these repairs yourself you're going to get cheap motoring! But when faced with paying out £100's on a car that has little financial value, I would think most people would give up. Theres also plenty of very cheap used cars about in the UK that can give good service if correctly maintained.
There are many of us on this Forum who cover large annual mileages in vehicles that are viewed as "bangers" by the Trade and (indeed) other drivers. I think that we have the last laugh as most of us seem to enjoy good reliability without the need for interest payments on loans in order to purchase new cars, plus we are free from the crushing loss that is depreciation. I have one old car (93 ZX TD) and one car that we bought new in Dec 01 (Berlingo Multispace). In this 2 year period the Berlingo has covered 20,000 miles and has costs us approx £4200 in depreciation.The ZX only cost a few hundred pounds and has covered 52,000 miles in the same 2 year period. No depreciation at all, and only normal costs such as tyres, servicing, brakes, timing belt etc. OK I did do the subframe mounts [:p]
Now, out of these two vehicles, guess which one has let us down..... [;)]
ANDERS!!
Come over to Sweden - I looked at a '94 Xantia 2.0 with 200 000 km on the clock going for 13 500 SEK (In Skurup) for my daughter - It was the wrong colour (!!!) - (metallic blue) so she bought a '94 ZX 1.8 (red) with the same mileage from the Citroën agent in Ystad (you know, the place between Köpenhavn and Rönne) for 20 000 SEK with guarantee . . .
//NiSk
Come over to Sweden - I looked at a '94 Xantia 2.0 with 200 000 km on the clock going for 13 500 SEK (In Skurup) for my daughter - It was the wrong colour (!!!) - (metallic blue) so she bought a '94 ZX 1.8 (red) with the same mileage from the Citroën agent in Ystad (you know, the place between Köpenhavn and Rönne) for 20 000 SEK with guarantee . . .
//NiSk
I am onto my third citroen (1 bx and 2 xantias) and all of them have been reliable run. The only thing with them as they get older is that many niggly things happen such as dash bulbs going, numberplate lights working sometimes and not others, loose bits on the interior dash and trim, cigarette lighter fails, clutch cable detaches from pedal. Not all these things have happened on one car but they have all happened with my citroens but they do not stop them going and being comfortable.
The only thing is that if the cambelt went, the best thing would probably be to dump it
Stath
The only thing is that if the cambelt went, the best thing would probably be to dump it
Stath
The reason i mentioned this subject was because the mechanic noticed a bit of oil in the coolant and reckoned it wasnt worth replacing the headgasket and just leave it because the car "doesnt owe me anything" his words not mine. But the thing he reokaced the bloody thing three years ago so whether or no he messed it up is another story.
The coolant has had some oil in it for all of those three years and still there after two coolant changes. Saying that it was there before head gasket was changed.
The coolant has had some oil in it for all of those three years and still there after two coolant changes. Saying that it was there before head gasket was changed.
NISK !!!
I'm fully aware that Sweden is "dreamland" for many danes [:D]
- but there's a lot more to life than cheap cars [;)]
Thing is - if I go to Sweden and purchase a nice s/h Citroen XM at a more reasonable price - then I can't drive it home to DK.
I'd be taxed to death [xx(]
Lot's of danish car owners have tried private import of nice s/h cars from other Europeen/Scandinavian countries - foiled by the huge price difference thinking DK import tax could not be harsh on s/h cars.
- they instantly learned they were painfully wrong [:0]
In some cases a s/h car + import tax summed up to even MORE than a similar barnd NEW car in DK - because it was a "luxury equipped" model variant NOT sold in DK.
Besides that - s/h cars from south of the DK border often is in much better shape lacking the winter road salt - then the car has a much higher initial trade value in DK - from which the tax is calculated.
Buying cars in DK - you only have 2 options :
1) You pay a lot
2) You pay even a lot more
This of course has a "positive" effect on garage & spares costs - since "it's still a lot cheaper than buying a new one - right mate ?".
Most foreigners visiting DK often shake their heads by the sight of the relatively old herd of cars on the roads here - together with those odd cheapo car makes/models from eastern Europe & far east.
I'm aware that the situation is quite the same in Norway - which is a bit of a mystery to most danes - because of the Norwegian oil.
This past summer I noticed quite some Norwegian cars on the road - mainly late '80 models larger variants - like older BMW500 series etc.
Typically cars from Germany & Sweden are newer cars larger variants.
I'm fully aware that Sweden is "dreamland" for many danes [:D]
- but there's a lot more to life than cheap cars [;)]
Thing is - if I go to Sweden and purchase a nice s/h Citroen XM at a more reasonable price - then I can't drive it home to DK.
I'd be taxed to death [xx(]
Lot's of danish car owners have tried private import of nice s/h cars from other Europeen/Scandinavian countries - foiled by the huge price difference thinking DK import tax could not be harsh on s/h cars.
- they instantly learned they were painfully wrong [:0]
In some cases a s/h car + import tax summed up to even MORE than a similar barnd NEW car in DK - because it was a "luxury equipped" model variant NOT sold in DK.
Besides that - s/h cars from south of the DK border often is in much better shape lacking the winter road salt - then the car has a much higher initial trade value in DK - from which the tax is calculated.
Buying cars in DK - you only have 2 options :
1) You pay a lot
2) You pay even a lot more
This of course has a "positive" effect on garage & spares costs - since "it's still a lot cheaper than buying a new one - right mate ?".
Most foreigners visiting DK often shake their heads by the sight of the relatively old herd of cars on the roads here - together with those odd cheapo car makes/models from eastern Europe & far east.
I'm aware that the situation is quite the same in Norway - which is a bit of a mystery to most danes - because of the Norwegian oil.
This past summer I noticed quite some Norwegian cars on the road - mainly late '80 models larger variants - like older BMW500 series etc.
Typically cars from Germany & Sweden are newer cars larger variants.
Well, if the new car market relied on me to keep them going, bread & dripping would be on the menu for Christmas Day.
Having managed a couple of new car franchises, I've seen the pain some folks go through just to own a new car. I've also seen the disappointment when the new car isn't what they thought it would be; reliable, hassle free motoring and I've seen the expression on the face when they find out a "scheduled" maintenance is going to cost more than the biggest repair they ever had done on "the old banger."
I live in a somewhat different world although with all these dodgy Politicians presently trying to organise the worst features of our respective countries into one great big pattern of life, it's only a matter of time before this all fades.
My current cars are typical examples; my BX16 Valve I bought in June 2000 for A$9000 and as it has been meticulously maintained, would today sell (eventually) for around A$10,000 going on advertised prices & sales I'm aware of.
The other car, a 1979 CX 2400 C-matic I bought for A$2600 in May 2001. I've done over 30,000 in it. Rugged miles, around town, around the farm pulling out trees and towing things normally pulled by heavier vehicles & tractos. It's cost me less than A$300 in repairs in that time and would today still pull around A$2500 - A$3000.
By contrast, had I bought a new say Xantia, it would have cost about $35,000 - $40,000 for it new plus say another $1500 in services, interst on money borrowed or lease interest say $4000 a year and today the car would be lucky to pull $20,000. So in 3 years, I would have saved $12,000 in interest, $15,000 in depreciation and $1500 in services to ensure my warranty was kept valid. Total:- almost $30,000
<b>Now</b> tell me it's cheaper to buy a new car instead of getting a solid reliable older car fixed.[:D][;)]
Alan S[^]
Having managed a couple of new car franchises, I've seen the pain some folks go through just to own a new car. I've also seen the disappointment when the new car isn't what they thought it would be; reliable, hassle free motoring and I've seen the expression on the face when they find out a "scheduled" maintenance is going to cost more than the biggest repair they ever had done on "the old banger."
I live in a somewhat different world although with all these dodgy Politicians presently trying to organise the worst features of our respective countries into one great big pattern of life, it's only a matter of time before this all fades.
My current cars are typical examples; my BX16 Valve I bought in June 2000 for A$9000 and as it has been meticulously maintained, would today sell (eventually) for around A$10,000 going on advertised prices & sales I'm aware of.
The other car, a 1979 CX 2400 C-matic I bought for A$2600 in May 2001. I've done over 30,000 in it. Rugged miles, around town, around the farm pulling out trees and towing things normally pulled by heavier vehicles & tractos. It's cost me less than A$300 in repairs in that time and would today still pull around A$2500 - A$3000.
By contrast, had I bought a new say Xantia, it would have cost about $35,000 - $40,000 for it new plus say another $1500 in services, interst on money borrowed or lease interest say $4000 a year and today the car would be lucky to pull $20,000. So in 3 years, I would have saved $12,000 in interest, $15,000 in depreciation and $1500 in services to ensure my warranty was kept valid. Total:- almost $30,000
<b>Now</b> tell me it's cheaper to buy a new car instead of getting a solid reliable older car fixed.[:D][;)]
Alan S[^]