Xanti 2002 HDI power loss and cutting out

This is the Forum for all your Citroen Technical Questions, Problems or Advice.

Moderator: RichardW

charentejohn
Posts: 463
Joined: 16 May 2011, 14:58

Xanti 2002 HDI power loss and cutting out

Post by charentejohn » 01 Sep 2014, 11:12

Is it the dreaded MAF ? I tried cleaning it and reinstalling but just cutting out, I then disconnected it and the same thing. I am sure it ran before with this disconnected.
I will have to call a local garage to do as test here as it won't move now, but before I do.....

Symptoms are / were for a few days has seemed to hesitate but then ok.
Today drove 40miles ok then started acting up, seemed to lose power on gear changes just for an instant on the last 20 miles.
When driving the last few miles seemed to lose all power but revs stayed the same on tickover, about 950rpm.
Finally lost all power 50m from home, then suddenly burst into life then lost power again.

Good old thing made it into the garage.
I cleaned the MAF with electrical cleaner, looked ok but a couple of small bit in the mesh at the rear.
Put it back and started then clicks from somewhere in the engine area then rough running (hunting) then stopped.

Any ideas how bad this could be, is it possible if they do a diagnostic they can repair it here ?

Peter.N.
Moderating Team
Posts: 9393
Joined: 02 Apr 2005, 16:11
x 197

Re: Xanti 2002 HDI power loss and cutting out

Post by Peter.N. » 01 Sep 2014, 12:18

The MAF problem usually gives you no power below about 3000 rpm. Your problem sounds suspiciously like the pressure regulator on the HP pump, a common problem is that the filter gets blocked, its the small stainless steel tube that you see on the end when you take it out, I have never successfully been able to clean one as the holes are so small. If you notice any metal shards stuck in it your lift pump is failing (if you have one).

The regulator is quite easy to remove, two screws and a connector, on the front of the pump behind the fuel filter. Some regulators don't have a filter so you could try removing it, grinding the end off is the easiest way but make sure you get all the swarf out.

Peter

charentejohn
Posts: 463
Joined: 16 May 2011, 14:58

Re: Xanti 2002 HDI power loss and cutting out

Post by charentejohn » 01 Sep 2014, 14:44

Dumb question where is the HP pump (if I look up HP pump is shows the LHM hydraulic pump) so I assume this is on the injector system ?
What do I take out to find the stainless steel tube ?

I looked behind the fuel filter but can't see anything to remove. Sorry to be so basic but sounds like a simple solution if only I knew what to look at :)

I found this post http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... hp?t=28803" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; which I can follow a bit.

If it helps the fuel pump whirrs when switching on, also seems to whirr if I switch it off for a minute then back on again. Not sure it used to do that.
After cooling down for a few hours or so it now ticks over, I think the 'tick tick tick tick' noise every so often is the hydraulic pump ?

Peter.N.
Moderating Team
Posts: 9393
Joined: 02 Apr 2005, 16:11
x 197

Re: Xanti 2002 HDI power loss and cutting out

Post by Peter.N. » 01 Sep 2014, 19:52

The HP pump is on the cam belt end of the engine near the top, the regulator is about 2" long and about 1" in diameter in the end nearest the engine. My Hdi's are a C5 and 406 so the layout maybe slightly different. Here is a picture of the regulator:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Peugeot-Citro ... 1e90efc55c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Peter

charentejohn
Posts: 463
Joined: 16 May 2011, 14:58

Re: Xanti 2002 HDI power loss and cutting out

Post by charentejohn » 01 Sep 2014, 22:45

Thanks Peter, sorry to be so clueless.
A picture is worth a thousand words as they say, no way to describe what that looks like so hopefully I can see it now I have the photo.
I would never have guessed that was what it was. I will let you know how I get on when I find it (tomorrow morning or more likely wednesday).

charentejohn
Posts: 463
Joined: 16 May 2011, 14:58

Re: Xanti 2002 HDI power loss and cutting out

Post by charentejohn » 04 Sep 2014, 10:48

Just been looking at the part to remove and it looks like a pain, so just to be sure I can sort it out once removed........
I will need to remove the fuel filter for access.
I can then (hopefully) remove the two bolts, which are too close to the casing to put a ring spanner on, and remove the regulator.
The regulator tip may be clogged and difficult to clean, if so a new one is needed ? Or is there a tube inside the pump that has the filter on ?

Just so I don't spend ages removing this only to find it is completely dead now.

Edited to add, just tried removing it and really dificult at the moment.
I started the car and it ticks over ok at 920rpm. If I increase to 2000rpm it waits about 3 seconds then drops back to 920rpm with pedal at the same position.
Every time I do this I get the same result, after dropping back I press the pedal more and up to 2000 then back to 920.

Peter.N.
Moderating Team
Posts: 9393
Joined: 02 Apr 2005, 16:11
x 197

Re: Xanti 2002 HDI power loss and cutting out

Post by Peter.N. » 04 Sep 2014, 16:32

Your most recent problem I haven't experienced so can't really help. My regulator was on a C5 so maybe its easier to get to. The filter will need to come off but its easy enough, or at least it is on mine, press the tab in at the front and it should pull out, just press the rings in on the hoses and pull them off.

Peter

charentejohn
Posts: 463
Joined: 16 May 2011, 14:58

Re: Xanti 2002 HDI power loss and cutting out

Post by charentejohn » 04 Sep 2014, 22:52

I think I will try the garage and ask them to come here and do a disgnostic, they are good so might know a reasonable solution. I will post the results, next week probably.

charentejohn
Posts: 463
Joined: 16 May 2011, 14:58

Re: Xanti 2002 HDI power loss and cutting out

Post by charentejohn » 18 Sep 2014, 22:22

Well, garage finally replaced the sensor, after a lexia check it was the one behind the fuel filter. It just screws in, rather than the one with the two bolts on the back of the pump in this case and now power is fine.
So far so good as the warning light went out but................

Drove 5 miles and stopped for an hour, all ok. Drove back and just as arriving home very bad tickover, dropping to 500rpm then back up and down.
This happened once before the sensor was changed so could be something else, could it be the MAF this time ?
Problem seems when warmed up rather than at startup, otherwise all ok.

I assume I can disconnect it and it should drive ok, just not as efficiently ?

Peter.N.
Moderating Team
Posts: 9393
Joined: 02 Apr 2005, 16:11
x 197

Re: Xanti 2002 HDI power loss and cutting out

Post by Peter.N. » 18 Sep 2014, 22:32

If the MAF isn't working disconnecting will not make any difference but try it to prove the point, if it does its working. I would still suspect the regulator. The faults that its caused on mine are engine hunting when first started, difficulty starting when hot, intermittent loss of power and the engine light coming on.

Peter

charentejohn
Posts: 463
Joined: 16 May 2011, 14:58

Re: Xanti 2002 HDI power loss and cutting out

Post by charentejohn » 18 Sep 2014, 23:17

I will try that in the morning, car starts ok and so far (all 10 miles of it) no warning light or power loss but a test tomorrow will show that.

charentejohn
Posts: 463
Joined: 16 May 2011, 14:58

Re: Xanti 2002 HDI power loss and cutting out

Post by charentejohn » 10 Oct 2014, 22:58

It has been a while but experimenting etc done, final fix today I hope.......
So, I replaced the MAF with a Mapco one, tight electrical clip meant it was difficult to push in and it came loose causing car to stop, made sure it was secure next time.
All was well for about 100 mls. Then didn't want to start after a short run, eventually started but then suddenly tried to die 5 mls later, then ok again.

Went to my local garage for a lexia test, seems the MAF was ok but they were puzzled as to cutting out problem. They said if MAF disconnected it shouldn't run at all but it does.
They reconected MAF and revved the engine, I could hear 'hunting' at sustained higher revs (no idea what rev level, 3k ?) and they puzzled some more.
Then noticed one of the screws was missing from the air filter housing leaving a gap for air to get in. Seems this is enough to upset it. I lost the screw when messing with original MAF and didn't think anything of it.

I had assumed air leaks were a problem after the MAF, never considered them before it. In the good old days filter / no filter made little difference to my morris 1000.
So they fitted a really expensive screw (no tittering at the back) at £16 for diagnosis etc. Perhaps it was a stupid customer tax :) as diagnostics are usually free but I guess no future work from it so very fair.
All seems ok again, time will tell. Just FYI in case anyone else has this, Lexia say all is well now, we will see.

charentejohn
Posts: 463
Joined: 16 May 2011, 14:58

Re: Xanti 2002 HDI power loss and cutting out

Post by charentejohn » 14 Oct 2014, 23:12

Seems all is not well...................
Ran ok for about 10 miles today then customary coughing and stalling, then wouldn't restart with or without MAF connected.
Any ideas ? is this the filter in the other HP regulator they didn't change.
They did the one directly behind the fuel filter (no filter there ? just changed the sensor) but not the one behind the pump. Is that the one where the filter is ?

Peter.N.
Moderating Team
Posts: 9393
Joined: 02 Apr 2005, 16:11
x 197

Re: Xanti 2002 HDI power loss and cutting out

Post by Peter.N. » 14 Oct 2014, 23:22

Looks like this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-FUEL-PRES ... 2ed481699d" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

charentejohn
Posts: 463
Joined: 16 May 2011, 14:58

Re: Xanti 2002 HDI power loss and cutting out

Post by charentejohn » 14 Oct 2014, 23:36

Ah, that isn't the one they changed. The one they changed needed doing as it was causing a warning on the dash.

I remember this it is the one that is very difficult to remove which is why I gave up and called the garage.
How do I get the bolts holding it out ? Seems tricky to me as they are the usual ones right up against the body of the sensor. Basically burried deep, no way to get an open ended on it and too tight to get a socket on the bolt head. Is there a special tool to remove such things, or do I grind a lump out of a socket so it grips 4 out of 6 sides of the bolt ?

Edited to add, if this is clean, which it is really, no muck in the holes at the bottom of the stainless bit then could the unit be dead ? I had the garage check this and they didn't highlight anything, could this be failing and not show up on a diagnostic. The garage are Citroen specialists but use a generic tester (I think) very fancy Wifi unit, could be a proper LExia though ?
Last edited by charentejohn on 21 Oct 2014, 14:57, edited 1 time in total.