Saxo running rough and odd noise. Car now cream crackered

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isisalar
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Saxo running rough and odd noise. Car now cream crackered

Post by isisalar »

Hi guys
Serviced the Saxo a couple of weeks ago and apart from the tickover seeming to be a bit lumpy when cold afterwards all seemed to be well. Having been away for a couple of weeks the wife complained yesterday that the car was making a strange noise and running rough.
Checked it out and all seemed well at first but as it ran longer and got hotter it started running rough at low engine speeds, a bit like a choke being left on, I put it down to a mixture problem. However, it then started making an intermittent noise which I can only describe as like gears crunching although certainly not gear related.
One bit of advice was;- it can only be the coil pack or plugs, also my wife's friend has said her car was making the same noise and it was the coil pack.
I know it really needs to go on a Lexia but as the nearest one is about 40 miles away and I'm not sure it would make it that far and back should I risk fitting a coil pack?
Things that may be relevant :-
First coil pack I've ever seen so it's entirely possible that I messed something up on the service. In fact the first petrol car I've owned for at least 20 years.
There was a gizmo on the right hand side attached to a single black wire going into the loom, the plate got slightly bent trying to remove it to get to the coil pack. I wouldn't think any damage occurred.
The eml wasn't on until my road test yesterday, now it is.
It has been HOT the last few weeks.
The new plugs were double electrode, the old ones single.
I discovered after the service that the current load when the fan turns on was enough to almost stall the car on tickover.
Car started fine today, seemed to run ok while I moved the car.
I'm assuming that the cheap packs available online are best avoided. GSF OK?`
Any advice or input most welcome.
Kind regards
Paul
Last edited by isisalar on 03 Aug 2014, 16:22, edited 1 time in total.
J reg 1.9d auto BX first Citroen
M reg 1.9d auto Xantia lx
N reg 1.9 td Xantia VSX Estate
T reg 2.0HDI Xantia Exclusive Estate Present car
M reg 106 diesel red
L reg 106 diesel white
02 Saxo 1.1i desire wife's present car(sadly now very ill cambelt gone- Doh)
citronut
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Re: Saxo running rough and odd noise.

Post by citronut »

or it could either be over heating or when the lambda sensor warms up or not it is upsetting the fuel mixture
Regards, malcolm.

current ride a BX 1.7 TZD estate
1986 MK1 BX 1.9na D Auto(in Mothman Andy's stable )
layed up roppy 1.9TD XANT estate, now gone to meet her maker
purple and lilac metalic 2CV(VIOLET)registered to her in doors
1972 DS special been layed up aprox 31 years
isisalar
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Re: Saxo running rough and odd noise.

Post by isisalar »

Thanks Malcolm
The symptoms certainly seemed at first to suggest a mixture problem but whats the noise? It's almost exactly like trying to engage a gear without dipping the clutch!!!. It happened several times whilst in motion and once on tickover. It could be several sparks tracking somewhere at once? As I said I've no experience of coil packs, last time I changed plugs they had leads, and only one coil.
One of the lambda sensors was changed recently, it cost about £120 for the part and it has been running fine.
I've done a fair bit of research on this and coil pack seems to be the stock solution to this type of problem but I can't see any reference to this noise. It only seemed to happen when things got good and hot so would a coil pack break down with increased temperature?
I think I'll have to give it a try, recovery off the M1to a lexia session would cost more than a coil pack and they do seem to deteriorate with age, probably the 12 year old original.
Cheers
Paul
J reg 1.9d auto BX first Citroen
M reg 1.9d auto Xantia lx
N reg 1.9 td Xantia VSX Estate
T reg 2.0HDI Xantia Exclusive Estate Present car
M reg 106 diesel red
L reg 106 diesel white
02 Saxo 1.1i desire wife's present car(sadly now very ill cambelt gone- Doh)
Northern_Mike

Re: Re: Saxo running rough and odd noise.

Post by Northern_Mike »

isisalar wrote:Thanks Malcolm
The symptoms certainly seemed at first to suggest a mixture problem but whats the noise? It's almost exactly like trying to engage a gear without dipping the clutch!!!. It happened several times whilst in motion and once on tickover.
The Berlingo did this recently actually, it was the timing belt cover catching on the bottom pulley occasionally.
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Re: Saxo running rough and odd noise.

Post by Flat Eric »

Have you checked it's not the alternator bearings on the way out?
isisalar
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Re: Saxo running rough and odd noise. Car now c ream crack

Post by isisalar »

Hi guys,
To cut a long story short, replaced coil pack, still the same. Discovered at the local factors that the double electrode plugs, supplied by GSF, were not the correct ones and went away with correct single electrode ones with high hopes. Fitted them and the car ran, still a bit lumpy on tickover but would rev nicely. There was a lot of popping in the exhaust as if there was an unburnt fuel issue. Hoping to clear it out I kept it on a fast idle(3000rpm ish) and gradually it seemed to clear a bit.
THEN, the gear crunching noise happened for a second, the engine stalled and on trying to re start the starter seemed to just make a spinning noise.
I'm figuring it must be a cambelt or camshaft problem and is not worth repairing.
This is most definitely the last petrol car I'm going to own.
Just had a quick look on Autotrader and found there are no diesel Saxos but quite a few Peugeot 206's. Some with 2.0HDI engines, which is a relief.I noticed that there are a few 1.4HDI's too.
Is this 1.4 engine best avoided?
Any advice re a replacement for the Saxo would be gladly recieved. Sizewise the 206 or Saxo/106 is fine, must be diesel, 3 doors ok, don't want to spend more than a grand.
Do all C4's have the dodgy dashboard?
Really hacked off
Paul
J reg 1.9d auto BX first Citroen
M reg 1.9d auto Xantia lx
N reg 1.9 td Xantia VSX Estate
T reg 2.0HDI Xantia Exclusive Estate Present car
M reg 106 diesel red
L reg 106 diesel white
02 Saxo 1.1i desire wife's present car(sadly now very ill cambelt gone- Doh)
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Mandrake
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Re: Saxo running rough and odd noise. Car now cream crackere

Post by Mandrake »

Does sound like some sort of cam belt problem - perhaps the belt had jumped a tooth and the popping in the exhaust was from a valve timing error. A valve timing error could also easily cause rough running at idle depending on whether exhaust, intake or both were affected and in which direction. If it was me I'd take the timing belt cover off and give it a visual inspection before dumping it, if only to see what went wrong.

I'm not sure why a timing belt problem (not even confirmed) would cause you to swear off petrol engines - Diesel engines have timing belts and timing belt problems too! ;)

I've only ever owned petrol cars and I'm yet to have a timing belt failure in over 20 years of motoring, much of that on old cars with unknown or over mileage belts!
Simon

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Northern_Mike

Re: Saxo running rough and odd noise. Car now cream crackere

Post by Northern_Mike »

Mandrake wrote:Does sound like some sort of cam belt problem - perhaps the belt had jumped a tooth and the popping in the exhaust was from a valve timing error. A valve timing error could also easily cause rough running at idle depending on whether exhaust, intake or both were affected and in which direction. If it was me I'd take the timing belt cover off and give it a visual inspection before dumping it, if only to see what went wrong.

I'm not sure why a timing belt problem (not even confirmed) would cause you to swear off petrol engines - Diesel engines have timing belts and timing belt problems too! ;)

I've only ever owned petrol cars and I'm yet to have a timing belt failure in over 20 years of motoring, much of that on old cars with unknown or over mileage belts!
I've had timing belt failures on both petrol and diesel cars, it makes no difference what the fuel is if the belt snaps.

Sounds to me like a pulley or tensioner was making the noise,and caused maladies with the belt. It might not even be that, it might just be turning over without firing. Those little Saxo motors do whizz over quickly even under compression. Your advice to take the belt cover off is spot on. I'd probably take it to a mechanic or get someone to look at it who could diagnose whether it was a belt in a couple of minutes. I'd offer to do it myself if it were nearer! I know all about belt failures..
citronut
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Re: Saxo running rough and odd noise. Car now cream crackere

Post by citronut »

sounds top me the cam belt has failed,
the main difference between petrol and diesel cam belt failure is on a diesel the repair cost cam be way higher,

whats the general condition of the Saxo,

i have a cylinder head ready to bolt on which came from an AX ( cant remember engine size ), but it was refurbed a few years back when we were sorting my sons AX,

we started torquing it down only to find striped head bolt threads in the block, so we ended up dropping our spare lump in complete,

so the head i have is for sale pm me if interested
Regards, malcolm.

current ride a BX 1.7 TZD estate
1986 MK1 BX 1.9na D Auto(in Mothman Andy's stable )
layed up roppy 1.9TD XANT estate, now gone to meet her maker
purple and lilac metalic 2CV(VIOLET)registered to her in doors
1972 DS special been layed up aprox 31 years
isisalar
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Re: Saxo running rough and odd noise. Car now cream crackere

Post by isisalar »

Thanks for the interest guys,
With the car immobile and with the nearest trustworthy garage 12miles away, the cost of recovery and diagnosis, then repair, on a car worth about £500 makes it a write off for me.
Obviously a petrol engine is no more likely to have a cam problem than a diesel, it's all the other stuff on these new petrol engines that's putting me off. This Saxo has been pretty reliable up to now but even a simple job like changing the exhaust gave problems with a lambda sensor which couldn't be removed, the replacement(£90) failed after a few days, this led to an MOT fail, this necessitated a 40 mile drive for a Lexia diagnosis, then had to pay about £110 for another sensor and pay again to get it fitted and a fight with the original suppliers to get back the cost of the original.
Then back to the original problem in this post, could be plugs, could be coil pack, could be lambda sensor. Diesels don't have any of these things. I've NEVER had a engine running problem with any of the diesels I've owned in several hundred thousand miles, so it's diesel only for me now.
Simon has spent 100+ thread pages trying and failing to get his petrol engine running properly, nuff said.
A 2.0 HDI small car sounds good to me, shame the C4's all seem to be the dreaded 1.6's.
Cheers
Paul
J reg 1.9d auto BX first Citroen
M reg 1.9d auto Xantia lx
N reg 1.9 td Xantia VSX Estate
T reg 2.0HDI Xantia Exclusive Estate Present car
M reg 106 diesel red
L reg 106 diesel white
02 Saxo 1.1i desire wife's present car(sadly now very ill cambelt gone- Doh)
Northern_Mike

Re: Re: Saxo running rough and odd noise. Car now cream crac

Post by Northern_Mike »

isisalar wrote: Then back to the original problem in this post, could be plugs, could be coil pack, could be lambda sensor. Diesels don't have any of these things.
Pardon? If a modern diesel breaks, it'll bankrupt you. Timing belts, EGR valves, injectors, lift pumps, dual-mass flywheels, crank pulleys, filters, turbo chargers, DPFs can and will fail at some point, and none of them are cheap. Oh, diesels have even more sensors than petrols thst can fail too.

Remember Citroenxm Paul replaced just about everything in the fuel system in his Xantia HDi to cure the cutting out problem? Jgra hasn't managed to cure his non-starting problem on his. Most of the "help" posts on here regarding engines are for diesels..

For a small car, petrol is a far better idea. If you're still intent on buying something else, In your position I'd buy a MK2 1.6 petrol Ford Focus. You'd find a good one for the same money as a shagged-out old Saxo or 106, they work, any mechanic can fix them and parts are dirt cheap even from the dealer. They have a good NCAP safety rating (unlike a Saxo) and are very nice to drive. You can get a good one - and there's loads to choose from, for about £650-700. A mate in Scotland picked an 04 plater up for £550. He also got a new Fiat Panda 1.2 on an 05 plate for the same price.
addo
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Post by addo »

I'd agree with the comments above by Mike re petrol vs diesel.

I'd also pop off the top belt cover and see if the motor can be pinned up.
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Re: Saxo running rough and odd noise. Car now cream crackere

Post by daviemck2006 »

If it's a car for mainly city use I too would go for a small engined petrol. All these things that mike speaks about will and do go wrong on diesels, and even more so if they are city cars. A focus would be a good choice, and if you don't want that big a fiesta. My son's one is ultra reliable and only needs the bonnet opened for screenwash. Could try Japanese, Toyota yards or Nissan micra. None particularly special but should be reliable and cheap to run. Or just spend the money fixing the saxo you have, may well be the best option as any older car is going to break so maybe better the devil you know?
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