Simon's new Xantia V6 and Leaf blog

[Zelandeth]

I've yet to ever do battle with a drum-in-disc setup which didn't seem like a cheaply made solution to a problem that never existed. Why can't you just have a cable operated cam which operates on the caliper itself? Why do we need a completely separate mechanism which certainly in the case of Jaguar's interpretation in the early 90s *barely* worked sufficiently to pass the MOT even when set up perfectly?

A decently designed drum brake setup is no more or less trouble than a disc arrangement, it's just different. I believe the Volvo uses a drum in disc setup which I'll no doubt need to dabble with at some point, given the handbrake is pretty poor - not that that's a huge issue in the real world with the car being an automatic.

My gut feeling is that the issue you're seeing is that the new shoes aren't sitting in exactly the same wear surface as the old ones. The friction material may be fractionally wider.

I think what you might just need to do is set up the adjuster (I can't believe such a modern car as this has a manual adjuster...even the drum brakes on my Trabant are self adjusting) so that there's a fair bit of drag initially and see if it self clears after you've driven a mile or two. I really can't see what else it can be.

Have to admit that dealing with brakes on any modern car these days is firmly in the "A garage can deal with that" if it's anything beyond changing a set of pads on a conventional disc setup as the makers seem to be coming up with ever more inventive ways to make what should be a ten minute job an utter nightmare.

[Mandrake]

My gut feeling is that the issue you're seeing is that the new shoes aren't sitting in exactly the same wear surface as the old ones. The friction material may be fractionally wider.

I think what you might just need to do is set up the adjuster (I can't believe such a modern car as this has a manual adjuster...even the drum brakes on my Trabant are self adjusting) so that there's a fair bit of drag initially and see if it self clears after you've driven a mile or two. I really can't see what else it can be.

I'm thinking along similar lines - there is one weeks worth of wear (and a few deliberate partial activations of the handbrake while doing 30 to see if they were working at all) on the new disc/drum with the old shoes fitted. This has worn a smooth section on the inside of the drum (which can be seen in the photo) that exactly matched the old shoes. As you say, the new shoes may be slightly wider (although they look the same to the eye) or had groves and thus may be making first contact at the edge of an unworn section of the inner hub or where a groove was and thus dragging.

Also when you apply the brake it doesn't work as well as it should because the resting position is set further back than normal to try to avoid the unwanted contact point.

I had pretty much come to the same conclusion as you before reading this post - adjust it until the handbrake is at least partially working with the handbrake applied, accepting there will be some drag, then give it a little bit of driving and use with the handbrake nudged on and off to allow the shoes and disc to bed together and then check and re-adjust. It may just require more than usual bedding in before a final adjustment can be made due to using the old shoes with the new drum then swapping in new shoes. (In other words it may not have happened if I'd got the right shoes the first time. )

Another possibility is there may be a small amount of "twist" in the alignment of the surface of the shoe lining material such that it's not perfectly parallel to the drum, the shoe material is very soft and wears away easily so it would quickly wear with a bit of use while moving to wear down the high side until they are perfectly parallel.

Have to admit that dealing with brakes on any modern car these days is firmly in the "A garage can deal with that" if it's anything beyond changing a set of pads on a conventional disc setup as the makers seem to be coming up with ever more inventive ways to make what should be a ten minute job an utter nightmare.

I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that I don't want to be doing car repairs at all anymore. I was very handy and enthusiastic when I was younger (my posts on this forum go back to 2005 and I was doing cars for 15 years before that) but I've fallen out of love with it as even a "trivial" job like changing some brake parts seems to turn into a disaster that so far (I'll still need to do more tomorrow) wasted two weekends and has left a bitter taste in my mouth as well as causing a lot of stress over a rapidly approaching MOT.

The front suspension on the Leaf is now exhibiting creaking and clonking as if it's got both ball joint and strut top bearing issues and that's very much going to be a case of "fix it please" as I won't be touching that.

[NewcastleFalcon]

There is a Nissan official procedure in the "service Manual" I have seen it written down in a link which I cant find now, but basically what you say except specifying speeds duration and and pressures applied driving the vehicle with the parking brake applied. This is from the "owners Manual I think.

9.26. Parking brake break-in
Break in the parking brake shoes whenever the holding effect of the parking brake is weakened or whenever the parking brake shoes and/or drums are replaced, in order to maintain optimum braking performance.

This procedure is described in the vehicle Service Manual, and it can be performed by a knowledgeable LEAF repairer such as a NISSAN certified electric vehicle dealer.

Neil

[myglaren]

I had a disc+drum on the Volvo 265. Hadn't had any drum brakes since the dreadful Imps.
The Volvo ones were very easy to work on, no hassles whatsoever.

[Mandrake]

I cannot believe how utterly useless this handbrake system is...

I adjusted the adjusters so both wheels could turn freely with the handbrake off and went for a gentle one mile drive at 30mph.

Got home and the rear left wheel was too hot to touch - 100 degrees according to a temperature gun... The right side about 40 degrees.

Jacked up the left, turned the wheel by hand, sure enough it was now partially binding, slackened it by about 4 clicks until it wasn't binding, checked the other side, it turned freely by hand so didn't touch that side.

At the start of the second test drive the left brake was back down to about 40 degree again. Another short 1 mile gentle drive with as little brake use as possible and the rear left wheel was up to 80 degrees again.

Jacked it up, spun it by hand - completely free to move. WTH ?

Furthermore, with the current settings both handbrake drums might as well not be there because I can push the handbrake pedal in all the way (which doesn't offer much resistance) and the car will still roll backwards with just the auto "creep" without even pushing the pedal, and while driving at 30mph fully applying the handbrake barely slows the car at all.

Third trip I deliberately applied the handbrake while driving a few times but it was as weak as anything - barely noticeable.

So they're basically useless and have no chance of passing an MOT. If I increase the adjuster any more they bind up and get extremely hot, if I slacken them even slightly neither side can actually act like a handbrake and would not have any chance of stopping the car rolling down a hill.

What am I missing ????? Surely they can't be this bad ??? All new parts. The handbrake cables are new, the handbrake lever inside the drum is moving across it's full travel and back no problems at all. Yet its binding when released, but unable to brake the car when applied. I just don't get it.

About to punt this one to the "experts" to deal with as I've had enough of this. Absolutely cannot stand drum brakes.

[mickthemaverick]

Given that with the handbrake off you need it to be free I am now thinking it is too free at the top, ie the 5mm travel you have is not sufficient to lock the wheel. So you need to open the top of the shoes a fraction more at there starting point so the 5mm presses them harder onto the drum. I'd try putting a 2mm shim of some sort between the top of the shoe and the operating lever so the top starts moving from a closer position to locking. Shimming where the red lines are, a horseshoe staple would be a test material.

[NewcastleFalcon]

Having done the same handbrake cables/shoes job on my Leaf, after a failed MOT on the handbrake in 2023, and reading what you have done and tried, I can't think of anything I did differently.

The disc and the pads were ECP specials, cables from cleevly. They were LH and RH cables probably impossible to fit the "wrong way round" but straws are being clutched at.

Depends what degree of "experts" you get to do the job, but if I was them I would start from scratch and do new disks and shoes, and yes most will just get them from Motor Factors or ECP not Nissan.

I cant remember doing anything clever in adjusting the "single cable" element of the parking brake ie the one which goes eventually to the pedal. Maybe I pressed the pedal a few times. I think the procedure was to lock up the drum with the adjuster, and then back it off a certain number of clicks (6 or 7) to allow pressing the pedal to be as per a normal handbrake, ie effective and fully on with a particular level of travel.

Sketchy information but as much as I remember from the job. I think I did do a bit of bedding in of the new shoes not in any scientific way just a few gentle dabs of the foot operated parking brake, keeping it pressed on for a few hundred yards etc.

Neil

[Zelandeth]

I cannot believe how utterly useless this handbrake system is...

I adjusted the adjusters so both wheels could turn freely with the handbrake off and went for a gentle one mile drive at 30mph.

Got home and the rear left wheel was too hot to touch - 100 degrees according to a temperature gun... The right side about 40 degrees.

Jacked up the left, turned the wheel by hand, sure enough it was now partially binding, slackened it by about 4 clicks until it wasn't binding, checked the other side, it turned freely by hand so didn't touch that side.

At the start of the second test drive the left brake was back down to about 40 degree again. Another short 1 mile gentle drive with as little brake use as possible and the rear left wheel was up to 80 degrees again.

Jacked it up, spun it by hand - completely free to move. WTH ?

Furthermore, with the current settings both handbrake drums might as well not be there because I can push the handbrake pedal in all the way (which doesn't offer much resistance) and the car will still roll backwards with just the auto "creep" without even pushing the pedal, and while driving at 30mph fully applying the handbrake barely slows the car at all.

Third trip I deliberately applied the handbrake while driving a few times but it was as weak as anything - barely noticeable.

So they're basically useless and have no chance of passing an MOT. If I increase the adjuster any more they bind up and get extremely hot, if I slacken them even slightly neither side can actually act like a handbrake and would not have any chance of stopping the car rolling down a hill.

What am I missing ????? Surely they can't be this bad ??? All new parts. The handbrake cables are new, the handbrake lever inside the drum is moving across it's full travel and back no problems at all. Yet its binding when released, but unable to brake the car when applied. I just don't get it.

About to punt this one to the "experts" to deal with as I've had enough of this. Absolutely cannot stand drum brakes.

Play in the wheel bearing allowing the drum to sit non-parallel to the hub when the weight of the car is sitting on it? So it spins freely when jacked up but binds when there's weight on it?

[NewcastleFalcon]

Bit of info on Nissan Leaf foot operated parking brake adjustment. Can't vouch for its accuracy, from a poster on Nissan Leaf facebook Group here

https://mynissanleaf.com/threads/hand-b ... ost-546075

Hoping this will help you, I am not a mechanic.
You have to remove instrument lower cover LH to do step 2 of the adjustment procedure.

ADJUSTMENT
1. Remove rear wheels and tires.
2. Insert a deep socket wrench onto adjusting nut. Rotate adjusting nut to fully loosen cable, and then
release parking brake pedal.
3. Secure both disc rotors to hubs using wheel nuts so as not to tilt the disc rotors.
4. Remove both adjuster hole plugs installed on the disc rotors.
Turn the adjuster until disc rotors are locked. Turn the adjusters in the
opposite direction by 7 notches after locking.
5. Rotate the disc rotors to make sure that there is no drag. Install
the adjuster hole plugs.
6. Adjust parking brake cable with the following procedure.
a. Rotate the adjusting nut to adjust parking brake pedal operating
force to 500 N (51.0 kg-f, 112.4 lb-f) just before a full pedal
stroke of 217.13 mm (8.55 in).
CAUTION:
Do not reuse adjusting nut after removing it.

Control type Foot pedal
Number of notches [under force of 196 N (20.0 kg-f, 44.1 lb-f)] 6 - 7
Number of notches when parking brake warning lamp turns on 1

[Mandrake]

Having seen your pics I wonder if the 'drum' part of the disc is not fully square, ie corrosion built up as in the sketch below?

Brand new drums/discs. They haven't had time to corrode yet.

[Mandrake]

Apart from the cables from Cleeveley my shoes and disks came from bog standard ECP I think (they did looking back on the thread probably "Eicher" brand). The adjuster is most likely the Achiles heel of your problems...can you put it in the wrong way round? does it foul on the lower spring if you do. Could the upper metal piece be mounted the wrong way? Hope you get it sorted when you look at it again in a fresher state.

Can you check your ECP purchase history to find out for certain what brand of disc you got from ECP please.

I have an ECP a few miles away and they offer Audura, Eicher, Bosch, Brembo, Textar and Pagid in increasing cost, all in stock!

I'm starting to think there is a fit issue with the Triscan disc because it's only the last fraction of a millimetre that it goes on that suddenly it starts binding. It could be something like eccentricity in the inner drum surface of the drum/disc - I checked the disc surface where the pads make contact with a dial guage and it was almost perfect, (also showing it is seating on the hub properly) however that doesn't mean there couldn't be a machining problem on the inner drum surface.

I'm thinking of going the nuclear option and buying a different brand of disc (and it will also be unused and not worn to the old shoes) and popping it straight on to see what happens.

ECP are closed on Sunday unfortunately but I could wind the adjusters back to minimum so they don't drag so I can drive the car again, (I've been driving like that for months with only a parking brake anyway) and could pick up some discs after work tomorrow and throw them straight on. What have I got to lose ?

If it solves my issue I ask to return the discs (along with the original shoes) to Cleverly. I think my issues here might just be a poor after market parts brand.

[NewcastleFalcon]

Can you check your ECP purchase history to find out for certain what brand of disc you got from ECP please.

I will give it a go Simon. I know when I got them so that is a start, no doubt ECP will have it recorded or I may still have some e-mail confirmation as long as I haven't binned it which will be the case with the paperwork. I don't have an account with ECP I always just do it as a "guest" but I should be able to find out.

Neil

[Mandrake]

Can you check your ECP purchase history to find out for certain what brand of disc you got from ECP please.

I will give it a go Simon. I know when I got them so that is a start, no doubt ECP will have it recorded or I may still have some e-mail confirmation as long as I haven't binned it which will be the case with the paperwork. I don't have an account with ECP I always just do it as a "guest" but I should be able to find out.

Neil

If you ordered it online you should have an order confirmation email even if you bought as a guest.

[NewcastleFalcon]

... got the parts today with a trip to ECP in Sunderland

I see it was 2021 when I bought the rear disks and shoes, although those shoes remained in the box until 2023 when I did the parking brake cables.

Just checked, I am an e-mail binner, and don't have a record of the order confirmation but you never know ECP may help out if I give them a call.

Neil

[Mandrake]

... got the parts today with a trip to ECP in Sunderland

I see it was 2021 when I bought the rear disks and shoes, although those shoes remained in the box until 2023 when I did the parking brake cables.

Just checked, I am an e-mail binner, and don't have a record of the order confirmation but you never know ECP may help out if I give them a call.

Neil

It's OK don't worry about it.