I'm trying to set the roto/lucas pump timing on my 1992 tzd turbo.
According to Haynes:- Remove plug/cover on top of pump and insert a probe so a dial gauge can read the up/down movement of probe.
When I insert a 7mm drill bit it rest's on the cam and pokes out the top of the hole, so far so good.
The book then says turn engine back approx 1/4 turn,the drill drops, zero gauge, then slowly go foward until gauge reaches desired point.
BUT as I turn the crank the probe/drill bit keeps jaming.
I've tried thinner probe but no luck.
Any ideas?
Bernie
Diesel timing
Moderator: RichardW
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Dave Burns
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From experience of changing both Lucas CAV and the bosch pumps there is never any need to time up using a dial test indicator. As long as you have the pump sprocket, cam wheel and fly wheel lined up - then all you need to do position the pump in roughly the middle of position and it should be fine, if it is a little smoky then just move the pump fractional amounts either way until it improves ..
Hoep this helps
Cheers
Hoep this helps
Cheers
Thanks for your replies.
Dave
I took the pump off to change the over boost diaphragm seals but they were ok. Then suspected the turbo waste gate stuck open so took the engine out to gain access. I'm just refitting the pump and thought I'd check the timing.
Anders
If you have the Haynes BX Diesel book page 4.11 item 31 . I have removed inspection plug and need a probe no bigger than 7mm and about 100mm long to reach the depth of the pump. I'm hoping your going to say "your in the wrong hole!!!" please
Gavin
When I removed the pump I marked the position, it was nearly all the way to the end of the slots (clockwise looking from the sprocket end).
Do any of you know how to time a Lucas pump?
Is the Haynes manual right?
What setting do I use , I have a white sticker of top of the pump with '0560' on it
Bernie
Dave
I took the pump off to change the over boost diaphragm seals but they were ok. Then suspected the turbo waste gate stuck open so took the engine out to gain access. I'm just refitting the pump and thought I'd check the timing.
Anders
If you have the Haynes BX Diesel book page 4.11 item 31 . I have removed inspection plug and need a probe no bigger than 7mm and about 100mm long to reach the depth of the pump. I'm hoping your going to say "your in the wrong hole!!!" please
Gavin
When I removed the pump I marked the position, it was nearly all the way to the end of the slots (clockwise looking from the sprocket end).
Do any of you know how to time a Lucas pump?
Is the Haynes manual right?
What setting do I use , I have a white sticker of top of the pump with '0560' on it
Bernie
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oilyspanner
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- My Cars:
Hi Bernie -
Once disturbed - the pump needs to be retimed - no matter the reason you disturbed it [8D]
I have both the brown & blue issues of the Haynes diesel - and found the ref. Obviously I thought more like the page4.10 pic8.10 situation by memory.
It's a bit scary reading that the probe jams during pump rotation - I'd try find a drill bit with shank end tipped - as the sharp cutting end COULD do some nasty things down there.
I've gone over the Haynes description a couple of times now - and can't find any pitfalls - other than a basic understanding of the diesel roto-pump principle is advantageous.
I used the Haynes description to time a totally off-topic engine - and it worked !
If you still experience problems - then try explain as detailed as possible and cross fingers DaveBurns have the time to come over your posting - as he has the hands-on experience on his backbone - NOT from Haynes [:p]
Once disturbed - the pump needs to be retimed - no matter the reason you disturbed it [8D]
I have both the brown & blue issues of the Haynes diesel - and found the ref. Obviously I thought more like the page4.10 pic8.10 situation by memory.
It's a bit scary reading that the probe jams during pump rotation - I'd try find a drill bit with shank end tipped - as the sharp cutting end COULD do some nasty things down there.
I've gone over the Haynes description a couple of times now - and can't find any pitfalls - other than a basic understanding of the diesel roto-pump principle is advantageous.
I used the Haynes description to time a totally off-topic engine - and it worked !
If you still experience problems - then try explain as detailed as possible and cross fingers DaveBurns have the time to come over your posting - as he has the hands-on experience on his backbone - NOT from Haynes [:p]
-
Dave Burns
- Posts: 1915
- Joined: 14 May 2001, 05:30
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars:
- x 2
Bernie I think you are turning the engine to far backwards and going out of range of the timing peg, a drill is no good for this you need a parallel 7mm probe with true (square) ends, if you feel the probe as you turn the engine backwards you should feel it click, then you have gone too far and it will indeed bind if you turn the engine forwards.
A quarter of a turn of the crank which is 90 degrees, will be 45 degrees at the pump or camshaft pulleys, so the engine needs to be turned for a distance of five and a quarter teeth of either the cam or pump pulley (42 teeth divided by 8 because there are eight 45 degree segments in 360 degrees) that will give you exactly 1/4 of a crank turn.
But it is not important to go all the way back 1/4 turn once the DTI is in position and has been zeroed, all that matters is that the timing measurement corresponds to the value printed on the pump when the timing peg slots into the flywheel, in your case 5.6mm, the DTI needs to be fixed to the pump not the engine so that any adjustment of the pump also takes the DTI with it.
Now the bad news, if the pump is a high miler that value will have changed slightly due to wear, mainly because the pistons wont generate quite the same amount of pressure as early in their stroke as they did when the pump was new, you may find the performance a bit flat when timing to the stated value but you need to start at that point for at least the proper reference.
You have made certain that all the timing pegs can be inserted at the same time I suppose and there is no possibility of being a tooth adrift.
Dave
A quarter of a turn of the crank which is 90 degrees, will be 45 degrees at the pump or camshaft pulleys, so the engine needs to be turned for a distance of five and a quarter teeth of either the cam or pump pulley (42 teeth divided by 8 because there are eight 45 degree segments in 360 degrees) that will give you exactly 1/4 of a crank turn.
But it is not important to go all the way back 1/4 turn once the DTI is in position and has been zeroed, all that matters is that the timing measurement corresponds to the value printed on the pump when the timing peg slots into the flywheel, in your case 5.6mm, the DTI needs to be fixed to the pump not the engine so that any adjustment of the pump also takes the DTI with it.
Now the bad news, if the pump is a high miler that value will have changed slightly due to wear, mainly because the pistons wont generate quite the same amount of pressure as early in their stroke as they did when the pump was new, you may find the performance a bit flat when timing to the stated value but you need to start at that point for at least the proper reference.
You have made certain that all the timing pegs can be inserted at the same time I suppose and there is no possibility of being a tooth adrift.
Dave
Dave
I've just been playing with the timing.
At the fully advanced position I have a reading of 12mm.
At the fully retarded 9mm.
Should there be more adjustment than this?
As you can see I'm nowhere near 5.6mm, so I rechecked the cam belt I'd just fitted, all ok.
When I took the pump off, I marked the position which corresponds with the retarded position.
Is there something fundamentally wrong?
Bernie
I've just been playing with the timing.
At the fully advanced position I have a reading of 12mm.
At the fully retarded 9mm.
Should there be more adjustment than this?
As you can see I'm nowhere near 5.6mm, so I rechecked the cam belt I'd just fitted, all ok.
When I took the pump off, I marked the position which corresponds with the retarded position.
Is there something fundamentally wrong?
Bernie
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Dave Burns
- Posts: 1915
- Joined: 14 May 2001, 05:30
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars:
- x 2
What are you using for a probe now Bernie, I suspect that this is still a problem for you, if you have a Haynes for the diesel version it should give you the dimensions of the probe.
Pay particular attention to the top of it, where it sits in the recess of the aluminium guide tube.
When the engine is turned backwards, the top of the probe will contact the face of the recess BEFORE the crank has travelled through the full 90 degrees, thus the probe is not sat on the timing peg in the pump at this angle of the crank, the peg will pick the probe up again as the engine is turned forwards.
So with the correct length of probe, it will travel for a shorter distance than those you are getting at the moment, I can't see another reason for it.
Dave
Pay particular attention to the top of it, where it sits in the recess of the aluminium guide tube.
When the engine is turned backwards, the top of the probe will contact the face of the recess BEFORE the crank has travelled through the full 90 degrees, thus the probe is not sat on the timing peg in the pump at this angle of the crank, the peg will pick the probe up again as the engine is turned forwards.
So with the correct length of probe, it will travel for a shorter distance than those you are getting at the moment, I can't see another reason for it.
Dave
Bernie -
If the timing is not spot on - you most likely will have starting problems as the main indication.
If you still feel the timing is a problem - simply book your car at a diesel specialists garage.
It won't be that expensive to have them adjust the timing spot on - and they will instantly report back any other major problem they find with the engine.
If the timing is not spot on - you most likely will have starting problems as the main indication.
If you still feel the timing is a problem - simply book your car at a diesel specialists garage.
It won't be that expensive to have them adjust the timing spot on - and they will instantly report back any other major problem they find with the engine.
-
Dave Burns
- Posts: 1915
- Joined: 14 May 2001, 05:30
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars:
- x 2
Timing too far advanced will produce a much louder and pronounced diesel knock, very metalic sounding.
Too far retarded will have the opposit affect on the knock, wont start with the usual ease in severe cases, during starting the engine will gather speed on the starter as it begins to fire and will eventually begin to run on its own but with reluctance, and will often stall at nothing.
Dave
Too far retarded will have the opposit affect on the knock, wont start with the usual ease in severe cases, during starting the engine will gather speed on the starter as it begins to fire and will eventually begin to run on its own but with reluctance, and will often stall at nothing.
Dave
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Pug_XUD_KeenAmateur
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Re: Diesel timing
resurrecting this old post with some hopefully useful further info on Pump Timing
As many will be aware the bottom bolt on the Lucas Rotodiesel is a bit of a pig to get at.... However, by using
a standard 13mm 1/2" Drive Socket
a 3/8" to 1/2" Drive Converter
2x 3/8" extension bars
The ratchet is the perfect length
Key here is the 1/2 to 3/8 Drive 'Expander', most of us have got a Reducer, but how many have an expander, it adds the necessary extra inch or so to clear the back of the pump.
See photos
I recommend the 'base of an old office chair' as a nice comfy kneeler by the way, too
Also, with regard to the timing itself, a 6.5mm Drill Bit in the bottom of the front mount should fit with a little slack; but not enough to get a 7.5mm in there. A 6mm's a bit too small by the way.
Nut & washer removed.
There's not much room for fingers, so manouevre the nut & washer on a magnetic pick up tool, and remember to put a rag over the cast iron mounting for the PAS & Alternator, else you'll be swearing when you drop the nut down there.
(NB. The drill trick won't work on the other top mount as the shape of the pump body prohibits it)
Engine is a 1.9 na D in a 405, am not sure if the timing's the same on the Turbo's
Link to the whole album: some pix are relevant, some not
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 6f3814dc2f
As many will be aware the bottom bolt on the Lucas Rotodiesel is a bit of a pig to get at.... However, by using
a standard 13mm 1/2" Drive Socket
a 3/8" to 1/2" Drive Converter
2x 3/8" extension bars
The ratchet is the perfect length
Key here is the 1/2 to 3/8 Drive 'Expander', most of us have got a Reducer, but how many have an expander, it adds the necessary extra inch or so to clear the back of the pump.
See photos
I recommend the 'base of an old office chair' as a nice comfy kneeler by the way, too
Also, with regard to the timing itself, a 6.5mm Drill Bit in the bottom of the front mount should fit with a little slack; but not enough to get a 7.5mm in there. A 6mm's a bit too small by the way.
Nut & washer removed.
There's not much room for fingers, so manouevre the nut & washer on a magnetic pick up tool, and remember to put a rag over the cast iron mounting for the PAS & Alternator, else you'll be swearing when you drop the nut down there.
(NB. The drill trick won't work on the other top mount as the shape of the pump body prohibits it)
Engine is a 1.9 na D in a 405, am not sure if the timing's the same on the Turbo's
Link to the whole album: some pix are relevant, some not
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 6f3814dc2f
Last edited by myglaren on 05 Nov 2016, 13:01, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Image tags added
Reason: Image tags added