Xantia suspension - ride quality

AWG · Unread post by **AWG** » 01 Dec 2003, 18:07

I now have a Xantia VSX estate 1.9TD[:)]. Compared to my GS and BX's the ride seems "pedestrian" - in fact a bit solid. There is only a slight difference between the ordinary and sport mode (Hydractive II). I have checked the corners with the engine running and the action seems right and there is no problem with height sensors.
Is the Xantia ride drastically different from other Citröens?
Am I correct in supposing that a failing centre sphere will reduce the difference between the 2 modes of suspension?
Is there anyone in the Surrey area who presumes to possess a Xantia with "standard" suspension character - my friends[?] don't do Citröen.

AndersDK · Unread post by **AndersDK** » 01 Dec 2003, 19:47

Is'nt your VSX Xantia model an Activa suspension equipped ?
The Activa versions are known for their superb curve handling - and somewhat harsh suspension.

Unread post by **RichardW** » 01 Dec 2003, 20:04

Anders,
It won't be an Activa, as they were not available with the 1.9TD engine[:D]
Anthony,
The Xantia does tend to be a bit harder than earlier Citroens. Yes the centre spheres will affect ride quality - they act as an additional sphere shared across each axle in soft mode, and are isolated in hard mode. I think that hard mode is the default 'off' mode for hydractive, so with the engine off the suspension should appear harder than with it running if all is in order.

AWG · Unread post by **AWG** » 01 Dec 2003, 20:44

RichardW,
thanks for that - I hadn't quite worked out what happened with the ignition off. I thought that it stayed in soft if the doors were used but I'm not sure how long that lasts. I'm a little surprised at how small the difference is between hard and soft and how unsoft the soft is.
Anders,
if the Activa is "somewhat harsh"er than mine then I'm glad mine is Hydractive - I'd be losing the rest of my fillings otherwise!

Homer · Unread post by **Homer** » 01 Dec 2003, 23:17

You won't notice the difference between hard and soft just by pressing the button.
All the button does is adjust how much accelerator, brake pressure or steering movement is needed to switch over to hard mode, with the light on it reacts quicker, makes the car feel more responsive and stops it dropping into soft mode when you are not pushing so hard. It still switches to soft mode when you are not pushing. (unlike hydractive 1)
Xantas, especially the Hydractive ones do feel harder than other 'wet' Citroens. You can obtain 'comfort' spheres but that is somewhat defeating the objective of having hydractive to start with. I don't know if the Activa is harder still but the non-hydractive (SX and lower trim) are softer.

David W · Unread post by **David W** » 02 Dec 2003, 01:29

Anthony,
It seems I might be at odds with other here, we'll see.
In my opinion a standard Xantia should have a far more refined ride than a BX. I do agree the Xantia (or the BX) doesn't give that ultimate floating feel of a DS or CX but they had a different way of going anyway.
In a major magazine test a year or two ago the Xantia came in the top 5 out of 100 cars for ride quality...regardless of price.
There are loads of things to spoil the ride quality but the major one has to be sphere condition, and that you have the right ones. Tyres also vary a great deal between makes...with the OE Michelin not always the best.
Then there are various suspension system faults as well as worn bushes/bearings.
I have driven three Xantia's (standard 1.9TD's) in the past week, I look after them all and each has spheres under a year old. On very poor Fen roads they are all so impressive.
Which particular part of the ride seems poor? Hard all the time, crashing on manhole covers...that sort of thing?
David

alexx · Unread post by **alexx** » 02 Dec 2003, 15:47

Upon testing hydractive C5 (HA3+), I needed 15 min of driving to notice the difference between comfort and sport mode (it happened when I entered the highway). The main difference is that in comfort mode system permits more vertical suspension movement before disconnecting middle spheres (switching from 'soft' to 'hard' mode), so the car 'floats' almost like older citroens. Well - almost - the ride is more controlled anyway. In sport mode, system prevents the car from excessive 'floating' by disconnecting middle spheres, so it behaves almost like sprunged cars. But, some vertical movement is still permitted, you can still feel some 'floating' it if road waves aren't very high. When they became higher, the car sticks to the road. Very good system, in my opinion.
Of course, the system disconnects middle spheres in sharper bends and upon accelerating/braking in both modes, when you don't want the car to float anyway, but in sport mode it's more sensitive, so this happens earlier.
On shorter and sharper bumps, there's very little difference between soft and hard mode, because this bumps are taken mainly with corner spheres.
If middle spheres are flat, you'll get hard mode whole of the time.
About ride comfort, both C5 I tested (HA3 and HA3+) were very comfortable, although the ride was quite different than in my BX. In both of them, ride was much smoother. Non-hydractive one was slightly softer on sharper bumps on local roads, while hydractive one was better on the highway waves.
It's very similar in Xantia (mine is non-hydractive, mkII). In my opinion, there are vey few cars that offer higher ride comfort, and none of them costs less than about 50.000 EUR.

AWG · Unread post by **AWG** » 02 Dec 2003, 16:24

Thanks to all for the helpful replies.
David Woollard - the ride seems firmer than I would expect but not hard in the Citroen sense of flat spheres. I can feel *all* the bumps in the road as for a large conventionally sprung car but they are all damped to a degree. I do not get the Citröen floating at all - EXCEPT when travelling fast on a good smooth road which isn't much of a test.
Alexx - I found that I could detect a difference between ordinary and sport. If travelling at the right speed there was a noticable improvement in ride on a much patched road. I suspect that I was managing to get inside the paramater envelope for the two modes. Certainly traveling very slowly or at 35+mph it wasn't detectable.
I think it's time to look at/change the centre spheres. I understand that I should do all 3 if I change one.
I do not have a means of testing the spheres. Does anyone know a reliable place in Surrey (England!)?

AndersDK · Unread post by **AndersDK** » 02 Dec 2003, 17:07

Anthony -
The standard hydraulic suspension problem just came up in my mind :
- air in the LHM side of the cylinders. Wellknown to give "harsh" suspension.
Try the Citaerobics - before any costly repairs are decided :
http://citroenz.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=42

David W · Unread post by **David W** » 02 Dec 2003, 17:09

Anthony,
One thing that I have noticed is that the feel of a Xantia is different to a BX as the spheres gradually go (I'm talking about the four main suspension spheres).
On a BX the spheres would seem to get to a certain point then the ride would be terrible. With the Xantia the car seems to have an extra suppleness/refinement that allows them to run with very bad spheres yet remain just acceptable in some circumstances.
Put it this way...mostly with a BX on poor spheres the owner would complain...but with a Xantia I might have to bring it to the attention of folks who would say they hadn't noticed or they aren't "too bad".
Do you know the age of your main suspension spheres?
David

alexx · Unread post by **alexx** » 02 Dec 2003, 17:11

Ride in Xantia and C5 is firmer than in BX/GS, but smoother at the same time, because spring rates are considerably higher, and dampers are differently tuned. Also, bump stops permits less suspension movement (in C5, they are actually touching rear arms in normal position, while in Xantia MkII there's 1.5-2 cm clearance). So, it's essential to have the car on the right height also.
Check this link, I explained how to do a quick test of spheres' condition (unfortunatelly, you can't check corner spheres on HA car this way).
http://www.citroenz.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=239
To check corner spheres, switch off the engine, close the doors and wait half a minute. Now, suspension will be in hard mode. In that mode, it seems rock hard, but it's not, unless corner spheres are flat. Applying constant force to front/rear bumper, within several seconds it should dive about 2 cm on the front and 4 cm at the rear, if spheres are at the correct pressure (under weight 70-80 kg). In soft mode (with doors open, engine on) this should be 2.5-3.5 cm front (depending how heavy the engine), 6 cm rear.

alexx · Unread post by **alexx** » 02 Dec 2003, 17:25

David,
your observation is correct. It's because of mentioned bump-stops, that are, in fact, supplemental springs. If spheres are on correct pressure, spring rate is lower, but bump stops will come in play frequently, so 'effective' spring rate won't be much lower, than with spheres at half the pressure. Dampers are tuned according to that.
These soft bump stops are fitted to Xantia from '98 on (HA models earlier). They are orange, made from polyurethane. Earlier models had stiff bump stops, made from rubber, and different spheres.

mark_sp · Unread post by **mark_sp** » 02 Dec 2003, 19:04

I have owned 2 bx's long term and earlier this year bought a 1998 xantia TD. I have also this year driven another older xantia TD, non of them are HA.
My opinion/experience is this:
The xantia is a more grown up car than the bx, it is quieter, better equipped, has better seating and is more stable and relaxing car to drive on the motorway.
However it has a far inferior quality of ride from the comfort perspective. I initially fitted standard TD spheres to my car as soon as I bought it as the originals were obviously shot. The ride was so hard (I didn't say firm because it wasn't firm, it was hard) that I abandoned the new spheres after only a few weeks and fitted non turbo spheres which softened the ride noticably. Even with the softer spheres the quality of ride is only up (down ?) to the standard of a granada scorpio I used to own which had sports suspension. I have made other checks such as ride height but remain bitterly dissappointed with the lack of comfort and this car will probably be my last Cit. The other TD I have driven is a 1995 car with steel wheels (mine has alloy) and the ride on this car was as bad as mine although I have no idea on the age of the spheres.
My theory is that Citroen simply wanted the xantia to feel like its steel sprung rivals to gain market share.
Hope you can improve your car.
Mark

AWG · Unread post by **AWG** » 02 Dec 2003, 19:55

Right - I'm off to digest this lot. There seem to be a number of active threads here and elsewhere on this particular issue.
1. I should end up with a better appreciation of what's what.
2. Another, more prolonged session, of Anders' Citaerobics.
3. I must find my ratings watch and do alex's timed bounces.
4. Reasoned action for once!
5. Report back - soonish.......
Many thanks to all for what you just can't find in print.

ghostrider · Unread post by **ghostrider** » 04 Dec 2003, 03:32

When I first bought my xantia I too was disappointed, but the front spheres and the main accumalator were nearly flat, as I was about to go on holiday I took some fairly new 500ml spheres off a BX turbo that I had, and the ride is great now, although the rears also need replacing. Now I dont think those 500 ml spheres were from a BX TD the numbers on the outside were 401 550 Perhaps Dave B knows where they were from? as the comprehensive A&D list does not include that number. I have always felt that the 500ml spheres gave a better ride, but the damper hole size is probably more critical
Pete
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