HELP - Xantia sunroof stuck!

[Old-Guy]

Beautiful sunny spring day yesterday and the car was getting hot inside running a little chore, so I opened the sun-roof without thinking (the car's been off the road for some 9 months). The back edge dropped down about halfway and then it wouldn't budge either way on the switch. Waited until I got back to fiddle, suspecting a blown fuse. Fuse (11) intact - but the mechanism is solid, won't budge at all with the manual crank. Anyone had this happen to them - I suspect dust, dirt and algae have jammed the mechanism or perhaps Saharan dust (it got everywhere) has set like mortar after rain earlier in the week.

So my immediate problem is how to close the roof?

Then, when I've got more time, how do I remove the entire mechanism to strip, repair and lubricate the mechanism? I'm guessing, and rather dreading, that it's a roof-lining out job?

[isisalar]

Can only speak from personal experience, but I have had 2 Xantias with sunroof issues. The VSX would jam occasionally and make a chattering sound, this was found to be the motor itself becoming loose and this stripped the teeth on the mechanism, it wasn't repairable.
The exclusive, when I first got it, would jam but with a little bit of physical help could be persuaded to open. This was found to be nothing more than a loose torq head screw and it's been fine ever since.
Just been out to check. If you can raise the roof to the tilt position you will see a number of screws attaching the glass panel to the mechanism and one each side on stops, one of these loose was the culprit in my case.
Best of luck with it.
Going to go out and check mine immediately, sunroof essential, especially this time of year.
Cheers
Paul

[Old-Guy]

That picture is depressingly familiar!

Problem is that the rear edge (of the glass) has lowered part way and is now well and truly stuck - the crank won't shift it (even while pushing the glass) while using as much force as I dare.

Update Sunday morning. The BoL is useless "...any type of problems with this sunroof should be referred to a Citroen dealer." service-citroen isn't much more help, though I did discover that the motor is mounted with 3 torx screws. So, armed with serious set of tools, I had another look - yes, one of the motor screws is inaccessible until you remove the entire headlining which entails stripping all the fittings!
The good news was that the motor isn't burnt out, wiggling the crank fairly forcibly, pushing the rear edge of the roof up and then operating the button, the roof suddenly closed.
O.K. it's not locked properly, because it can be pushed up a few millimetres from inside. I have a nasty suspicion that while she was parked up for months some nasty little barsteward tried to break in perhaps hoping to find the key to the locking wheel nuts (not in the car).

It looks as though the glass is bonded to a steel bracket on each side which in turn is fastened to the slide mechanism by two or three small screws each side. These are just about get-at-able now and I'm wondering: if I remove them, can I then just lift out the glass?
This might give me a decent look at the slide mechanism and at least a chance to try cleaning and lubricating.
For the moment I'm going to leave well alone - three small grandchildren arriving imminently (with their mother) to stay for the week!
Struggle (with the car) to be resumed after Easter.

[isisalar]

I've just checked on mine and yes, the 2 securing screws are accessible from inside the car and it looks like the glass should just lift out.
cheers
Paul

[Old-Guy]

Let me know how you get on (with pics if possible). Mine goes up and and down but has now decided not to slide rearwards, coincidence or spooky??

Perhaps it's just lack of use and the beige Saharan dust?

Certainly, if I succeed in 'servicing' the sunroof (without removing the head-lining), I'll document it for the benefit of anyone else.

[bonnyman750]

Check out this post...Hope it helps you...

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... highlight=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Cheers,

Glyn

[Old-Guy]

Thanks a lot for that link Glyn. Now I too have the confidence to start investigating without fear of something going BOING! if I remove the motor. Unfortunately, in the intervening five years, the first documents linked by Jim have been moved on his server (I'm good at that too: have a tidy up and rationalisation of where some things are filed only to find a lot later that various links no longer work).

Anyone got a copy of those (Citroen?) documents pleeease?

• Xantia Sunroof Circuit
  
  Xantia Sunroof harnesses
  
  Xantia Sunroof Component Locations

Guy

[bonnyman750]

Hi Guy,

luckily I had the forethought to download the images at the time but I don't have any account like Flickr or Photobucket. If you want to send my an email address at which I can send them to I would be more than happy to oblige. The three torx screws are easy to remove and the motor drops out quite easily too. The only head scratcher is the relay which is held onto the roof/body joint by a spring clip and tucked up out of the way. If the sunroof glass is flat to the roof (i.e. normally closed), when you get the motor out look at the alignment of the two cogs. There will be a small pair of arrows or similar - these must line up before refitting the motor in the normally closed position. If checking the soldered joints on the relay circuit board, mine were cracked at one end on possibly the smallest joint of the lot...

HTH

Glyn

[Old-Guy]

Glyn you're an absolute star! PM sent.

The problem seems to be something stuck solid - just hoping it isn't a broken tooth in the gears. The odd thing was that when I was fiddling around, the roof popped back up just like it should. Having got it closed, I wasn't going to fiddle around with it any further until I've got time to spare to sort it properly. Like most of us, we depend on our Xantia as 'daily transport'.

Ref cracked tracks/joints. I've come across this problem loads of times from a Xantia wiper relay to Toshiba and Dell laptop DC power inputs. The problem seems to be that the modern production method of wave soldering can't cope with connections of vastly differing size. If set-up for sub-minature and/or surface mount devices, large (power/mounting) lugs don't get enough heat or solder to make a good joint. The result is either a 'frozen' joint (where the solder cools before it adheres properly) or one where there's not enough solder to provide adequate physical strength - somtimes both! It's a real bore to spend an hour stripping something down to do a simple 10 second soldering job and another hour to re-assemble. Built-in limited life! But at least Xantia's are fixable, not like modern white goods. Are old freezer lasted over 40 years (really) - apparently it's replacement has an expected life of 3!!!!!

Guy

[harryp]

Just a thought; there's a few posts on the Yahoo Forums Xantia regarding sun-roof which I used to fix a problem with my Mark 1. May prove helpful as well??

[Old-Guy]

Many thanks Harry.

One and all, it seems likely that a fairly major 'service' of the sunroof is called for apart from any repairs needed. Given the lack of comprehensive information, I'll collate what information I've found and add my own experience with the intention of creating a useful guide - but that won't be for a while yet; too many calls on my time at the moment.

[Old-Guy]

Progress of sorts today. After some cogitating, I'd decided to whip out the motor and have a look at it in case the gearbox had stripped any teeth and thus a replacement would be needed. I discovered the following:

It's easy enough to remove the motor. Undo the 3 mounting screws (T20), wiggle the motor slightly and it will drop out. Unclip the relay behind the headlining towards the driver's sunvisor and the whole assembly will drop out - there's no need to cut any of the cable ties. Disconnect the harness multiplug.

The motor shaft has a worm on it that drives a nylon worm gear on the same shaft as a pinion that drives a pair of steel spiral racks that drive each side of the slide mechanism by push-pull Bowden cables. Also on the shaft is an epicyclic gearbox, the outside of the annulus (outer) gear is in the form of a large plastic double cam that operates 3 micro-switches - the two limit switches for tilt and slide, and a third for the closed position.

Several problems:
1. WARNING - if the crank is ever used to close the roof in an emergency, considerable force would be needed to strip the teeth of the worm gear because the worm (on the motor shaft) of course prevents the reduction gear-train being driven from the rack end.
2. The entire gear-train and epicyclic gearbox are sealed; the pinion is staked onto the shaft after the plastic epicyclic box is assembled and the cover of the primary gearbox is riveted on.
3. The motor unit is NFP!
4. Several teeth of the nylon worm gear are damaged - so I deduce that the slide mechanism has jammed due to dirt or grit.
5. The relay has a large sticker that says Webasto Heuliez and the case has "PEKTRON Derby England" moulded on it. The labels on the motor body are completely illegible.

I now need a replacement motor unit with a good gearbox. Citroen part number: 6651 23 SUNROOF MOTORREDUCER Yellow Identification 4e . There were 3 types of motor - mine is the type fitted from RP 6763 (16/5/95) to 7385 (27/01/97) - only 18 months of production just my luck!

I've removed the motor body and shaft ready for the next stage - removal of the glass so I can examine the slide mechanism (hopefully undamaged) and get it operating smoothly when operated with the hand-crank. Then replace the glass, set the mechanism accurately in the closed position with the crank before (hopefully) fitting a replacement motor unit.

Interestingly, the entire sunroof cassette is British-made Webasto unit - so I wonder if other cars shared this same motor unit. I might try an e-mail to Webasto

[Old-Guy]

Quiet at work this p.m. enabling me to determine from service.citroen.com that although 3 different motor units were fitted at various times, NONE of the other sunroof parts (except the 'blinds' which varied according to trim) changed. Thus all 3 types have to be (mechanically) interchangeable and since the relay didn't change either, that suggests no nasty complications with incompatible electrics either.

EDIT
The motor part numbers from service.citroen are:

• Part No (all NFP).....Identification.......................from RPO.....to RPO
  95 669 006.............GREY REF SWF....................................6762
  6651 23................YELLOW IDENTIFICATION 4E.......6763.........7384
  6651 26.................none................................7385

N.B. No other sunroof parts changes apart from 'blind' which depended on trim not RPO.

[bonnyman750]

Hi Guy,

as I posted on an earlier sunroof issue, when I needed as relay, I found that they were the same as those fitted to the Peugeot 405s so I would hazard a guess that the motor might be the same too...all out the same parts bin and all that! Might be worth a trip to the local scrappy...

Cheers,

Glyn

[Old-Guy]

Sorry Glyn. You did indeed! Getting forgetful.