suspension bushings & exhaust

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sparksie
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suspension bushings & exhaust

Post by sparksie »

As reported in the thread about Citroen plastics, which got a bit off topic, Cit failed her NCT on (among other things) the bottom "wishbone" bushings.
I ordered them and was surprised to hear they were available for immediate delivery.
I was less pleased to find, on inspection of the contents, that one of the sided ones had been mis-packaged, so despite the part no.s all being correct on the packaging, what I actually got was enough to do the same side of the car twice!
They're Quinton Hazell, too. Usually a good reliable, decent quality supplier.
Hope tomorrow's delivery brings the correct one. I've lined up a couple of afternoon slots for her this weekend and wouldn't like not to finish the job!
Can they really be as straightforward as they look? On a Citroen?
Everything else on the surprisingly short list, given total lack of any kind of preparation, has been attended to apart from the exhaust box, which has soot at a seam, indicating a leak. It looks very solid, so I'm thinking I might run a bead of MIG along the seam.
I had no access to the pit today and I'm afraid to crawl under her, in case she decides to sit on me, so I haven't looked at how the box is held on.
Is it a sleeve and clamp that's going to put up a fight, or a flare/flange type joint that will come apart easily?
If I'm going to have to fight it, I'll probably just buy the new one now and save having to fight it again next winter...

RichardW
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Re: suspension bushings & exhaust

Post by RichardW »

Although I've never actually tackled it, the wishbone bush job is reportedly not that hard, however, there are a couple of gotchas (aren't there always!). 1 - you need to undo the drop link to get the arm out / in - these are normally seized, and need to be cut off (although you might get it off with a windy gun I guess); 2 - you need to lift the roll bar to get the arm back in with the new (stiff) bush on it - if you are not careful how you do this, you can upset the front ride height, and end up with it looking like it's on stilts. Either do one side at a time with the suspension depressured and jack the opposite side hub up to lift the ARB most of the way and then just a careful easing at the end to lift the bar enough to get the arm back in. Otherwise, disconnect the link to the height corrector, then you can do what like with the ARB. 3 - the position of the rear bush is critical - IIRC, it should be flat when there is an 8mm drop down the arm to the ball joint eye - there's a diagram somewhere showing the alignment.

Oh, and the bolts are a mixture of 16 and 18mm - sizes which Citroen just love.... :lol:

Hell Razor5543
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Re: suspension bushings & exhaust

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

I expect you have heard of Plus Gas, but if not I would get some in. It does work (although occasionally6 it needs a few applications to be effective) on most things.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/Oils-Lubrican ... as&_sop=15" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Northern_Mike

Re: suspension bushings & exhaust

Post by Northern_Mike »

Hell Razor5543 wrote:I expect you have heard of Plus Gas, but if not I would get some in. It does work (although occasionally6 it needs a few applications to be effective) on most things.
Apart from suspension pipes rusted into K pieces :-) It was worth a go though. Citronut ended up having to use the blowtorch on them.

Northern_Mike

Re: suspension bushings & exhaust

Post by Northern_Mike »

RichardW wrote:Although I've never actually tackled it, the wishbone bush job is reportedly not that hard, however, there are a couple of gotchas (aren't there always!). 1 - you need to undo the drop link to get the arm out / in - these are normally seized, and need to be cut off (although you might get it off with a windy gun I guess); 2 - you need to lift the roll bar to get the arm back in with the new (stiff) bush on it - if you are not careful how you do this, you can upset the front ride height, and end up with it looking like it's on stilts. Either do one side at a time with the suspension depressured and jack the opposite side hub up to lift the ARB most of the way and then just a careful easing at the end to lift the bar enough to get the arm back in. Otherwise, disconnect the link to the height corrector, then you can do what like with the ARB. 3 - the position of the rear bush is critical - IIRC, it should be flat when there is an 8mm drop down the arm to the ball joint eye - there's a diagram somewhere showing the alignment.

Oh, and the bolts are a mixture of 16 and 18mm - sizes which Citroen just love.... :lol:
Yes, I second that about the rusty drop links. They can be a nightmare. If they're the ones with the allen or torx in the middle, they're not too bad. Depends how much you want to spend, but it might be worth also replacing the drop links, then you can just ensure you have new nuts and grind the old ones off in seconds. It's a gash way of doing things, but I love my grinder, and it saves a whole world of annoyance for drop links.

Hopefully Chris570 will be along to advise - I know he once change a flexi-hose and a P-bush (The one you need) in less than an hour in the cold on CitroJim's Xantia HDi in less than an hour...

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... 5&start=30" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (page 3 or 4)

sparksie
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Re: suspension bushings & exhaust

Post by sparksie »

Oh Dear

More bad news today!
The entire stock of RH bushings are actually LH ones in the wrong packaging!
It had to be me that discovered this, didn't it?
Looks like I'm going to have to get one from GSF, or similar, since I don't have time to wait for QH to get a new batch.
Not even sure they will, as they obviously can't be a big seller! I may have just supplied them with a perfect excuse to seek redress from the manufacturer and avoid having a big stock of slow moving parts!
Thanks for the heads-up about the drop links.
I'll have a peep at them tomorrow. I doubt that they'll be as bad as what you guys are used to, though they may still cause trouble. We don't tend to use salt to anything like the extent you do, when the ice appears. In fact, when Cit was new, back in 2000, I don't think salt was routinely used at all. It has to be imported here, at quite considerable cost, so it tends to be used on major routes only, with plain sharp sand/coarse grit being used on the reat of the network.
As a result, underbody components are usually not transformed into unrecognisable red/brown lumps, though there are exceptions!
We do a lot of ARB drop links, on various makes and models and they almost all come off the way they're supposed to. Why should Citroen ones be different? Tempting fate, or what???

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Timmo
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Re: suspension bushings & exhaust

Post by Timmo »

as an addition to the bushes and how easy are they, i did mine in the shed with a standard bench vice, getting them out caused more comical issues due to the arm and hub not splitting at the ball joint! The sense of satisfaction of the Heavy hits on the splitter when it started to move was immense! until i realised it was infact the Workbench moving not the arm and hub, The whole thing had come out of the wall! :shock: the Top hat bush was a bit more tricky to get out but tapping the edge of the top hat in on a couple of places helped it come out.
but with some Large sockets to cover the outside of the bushes to use to help push the bush in it was a Very easy job, i'd be happy in saying that no problem in doing the pair of arms in a day if you havent done them before,

isisalar
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Re: suspension bushings & exhaust

Post by isisalar »

Had to get the P bushes on mine done and did quite a lot of research. What I found was that there are a lot of rubbish bushes out there, lots of reports of early failure, and that the alignment of the bushes is pretty critical. Most of the pattern ones cost from £7-£20 pounds, quality unknown, how good can a £7 bush be? Eventually I got genuine Citroen ones for a little over £30 each.
I came across an old post, after they had been fitted, which said that the genuine bushes have alignment marks to line them up correctly. Apparently it's easy to get wrong and that would make a lot of sense.
There are also lots of cheap complete arms available, these are also failing, sometimes in less than a year, according to the indy I use.
Cheers
Paul

sparksie
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Re: suspension bushings & exhaust

Post by sparksie »

Ok
Spent the day in hospital with SWMBO, so never got to have a look at this.
However, I would have thought the shape of the "P" bushes would make misalignment practically impossible.
I thought all the talk of incorrect positioning referred to the "top hat" bushings, which can be fitted in any orientation.
There's usually a rough "correct" position for such bushings, which can be hard to establish if the old ones have disintegrated and the rubber stiff/soft sections can't be identified and copied.
Not anticipating that issue, as mine are nearly ok. TBH they'd probably have passed had I not been in the trade.
I may have to go with the el-cheapo "P" though, just to get a cert. It seems OE quality RH items are not common at the moment. On Cit that's the one I'd probably have failed, had I been the tester, so I can't just do the three I have and hope for leniency on the fourth.
I'll have a poke around the net tomorrow and see what I can come up with, while leaving the QH one on back order, in case they ever get them in again!

citronut
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Re: suspension bushings & exhaust

Post by citronut »

if the P bush is misaligned it will tear its self to bits in no time at all,

the top hat bush is only important to align correctly if it has voids in the rubbery bit,

also im not a fan of Q/H as many moons back i fitted a new Q/H clutch cable to a GS, which failed on first press of the pedal,
as the nylon inner liner slid out with the inner cable and scrunched up, which jammed the cable up

RichardW
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Re: suspension bushings & exhaust

Post by RichardW »

The inner metal sleeve of the P bush is an interference fit on the wishbone - you will need to drive / cut off the old one, and then drive the new one on. If you put it on in the wrong position, then when you bolt up the other end of the clamp, the bush will be twisted in normal running, and this will tear it apart relatively quickly.

sparksie
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Re: suspension bushings & exhaust

Post by sparksie »

Thanks guys.

Had to stay near home today, in case there were any medical emergencies needing transport.
I borrowed a neighbour's slatted shed and did my NS bushings. A nice easy job. No need to disturb the ARB drop link. The arm comes out easily, with suspension set low. I figured out what you were all saying about the orientation of the "P" bush, when I was struggling to remove the old one with all the wrong tools. I carefully marked the position of the old one and tried to put the new one back the same way, but sadly it turned a bit while I was belting it on, so now the bush will be fully relaxed with the suspension somewhere between normal and low. It'll be under severe pressure with suspension on high.
Curses!
Getting the old "P" bush off was fun. It would turn on the arm, but not pull off, even when belted with a drift and lump hammer while being turned.
I ended up having to use destructive means to remove it, which I was hoping to avoid, as there wasn't a lot wrong with it!
Still, I got it done, in far from ideal conditions, having to borrow SWMBO's car to drive back and forth to the workshop for tools, in around 4 hours all told.
Most of that was spent with a hack saw, chopping up the old "P" bush. I really don't recommend doing it that way, but needs must!
If fitting a new arm, this could be done in less than an hour.
The only difficult thing was the bottom ball joint, which broke my splitter. I tried to shock it loose, but without success.
Then I noticed, Citroen have provided anchor points for a two-legged puller! Back to the workshop to collect the 10 ton hydraulic puller and out she popped. I don't think any other manufacturer has thought of this. I've certainly never used the puller on a ball joint before!

sparksie
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Re: suspension bushings & exhaust

Post by sparksie »

Hmm
Something strange happening.
Sorry for half finished post.
I'll try again when I figure out what's going on with laptop and phone

sparksie
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Re: suspension bushings & exhaust

Post by sparksie »

Right. That was weird.
Got hit by a complete IT shutdown for over a day. No WiFi, no LAN, no phone and the only internet was dial-up on an old modem, using the old land-line.
Semms to be back to normal now, though.
I've driven Cit over some rough ground, since doing the NS bushings. No noticeable difference.
Time starting to feel a little tight now, if I want to qualify for a re-test, rather than a whole new test, so if quality bushings are not available today I'm going to have to order the cheapy ebay one. At least I know whats involved now and having to do it again before next year's test won't kill me.
I must say, that's the easiest lower suspension arm (track control arm, to give it the right name) I've done in many years. I don't know why the ball joint is so hard to split, but I saw in an earlier response from Timmo, that it isn't just mine. Citroen must be aware of it, though. They provide a pair of shoulders that can only be for a two legged puller and they work like a charm, especially with a hydraulic puller. It really is an example of how it should be done and not something I associate with French designers.
One thing possibly worth a mention... The top hat bushing can't be pushed out into an over-size socket, because the side wall of said socket will be too thick to fit between the bushing lip and the side of the arm. I made a suitable spacer out of some old exhaust pipe the neighbour happened to have lying around. The correct way would have been to use a press, with a straddle type spacer, but I wasn't up for driving bits of car back to the workshop. SWMBO would kill me if I dirtied the Mitsi. As it was, the exhaust, carefully cut square, worked perfectly in a bench vice with a socket from a windy gun as a drift to do the pushing.
I'm doing a lot of this DIYing lately and there's a certain satisfaction to be had from managing with basic tools, that I'd forgotten.
Maybe I'm going into my second childhood...?

c.morewood
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Re: suspension bushings & exhaust

Post by c.morewood »

sparksie wrote: if quality bushings are not available today I'm going to have to order the cheapy ebay one. At least I know whats involved now and having to do it again before next year's test won't kill me.
You may find yourself "doing it" again in a matter of weeks if you buy a cheapie off e bay as I found out a couple of years ago. I think it was less than 1000 miles.