My old BX 19RD has finally failed the MOT on the front to rear hydraulic pipes. My local specialist has quoted £230-£250 which I think is reasonable but the car is old and its not worth spending that much on.
Question is, how difficult is it to do these pipes? I know that its a long job and the car needs to be up in the air to gain good access but does anyone know what the real difficulty is?
Is it more difficult to do than the main octopus which I have done and all I can say is that it was an 'interesting' day.
Any thoughts appreciated as its really too good to scrap!
Dreaded BX Hydraulic Pipes
Moderator: RichardW
I think you've just about covered it in your post, Jonesy....it's just bound to be a long job, possibly with difficult access. I'd say the first essential thing is to very securely lift/support both front and rear to give maximum access if a pit isn't available. A pair of well-secured ramps under the front wheels may prove very useful.
While I've not fitted a new set, I've taken an old set in copper off a scrap car, which proved fairly straightforward because:
(a) The copper is more flexible than steel
(b) Whoever had replaced the set had put 10mm nuts onto the pipe ends which makes getting a grip SOoo much easier than on the 8mm nuts.
In fact, getting the old set off you would just snip the old ones off and then fit the new after disposing of the nut ends and fitting new seals - though doing this one pipe at a time to avoid confusion. I only took the old ones off as they were copper and I was hoping to refit them.
There IS the nasty bit where the pipes go under the rear subframe. Some say you need to drop the rear subframe to do this bit and I daresay it's more convenient, but perhaps not essential. If you don't drop the subframe and are using the (surprisingly cheap) Citroen pipes then I guess there are risks of damaging the plastic coating while threading through. I'd go to your local GS&F and ask to look at the pipes first so you can get some ideas of the problems in threading through.
There's a lot of re-clamping along the way and I think you'll benefit from plenty of space all around the car while doing the job - it's the sort of thing that a double garage would be very handy for. Lots of old blankets would be helpful too under the car to protect the new pipes during the fiddly stages of fitting.
I did once meet a BX-owning farmer with access to heavy-lifting machinery - he told me that he carefully put the car on its side in order to do this job. However, most of us don't have access to anything heavy-duty or safe enough for this approach......
While I've not fitted a new set, I've taken an old set in copper off a scrap car, which proved fairly straightforward because:
(a) The copper is more flexible than steel
(b) Whoever had replaced the set had put 10mm nuts onto the pipe ends which makes getting a grip SOoo much easier than on the 8mm nuts.
In fact, getting the old set off you would just snip the old ones off and then fit the new after disposing of the nut ends and fitting new seals - though doing this one pipe at a time to avoid confusion. I only took the old ones off as they were copper and I was hoping to refit them.
There IS the nasty bit where the pipes go under the rear subframe. Some say you need to drop the rear subframe to do this bit and I daresay it's more convenient, but perhaps not essential. If you don't drop the subframe and are using the (surprisingly cheap) Citroen pipes then I guess there are risks of damaging the plastic coating while threading through. I'd go to your local GS&F and ask to look at the pipes first so you can get some ideas of the problems in threading through.
There's a lot of re-clamping along the way and I think you'll benefit from plenty of space all around the car while doing the job - it's the sort of thing that a double garage would be very handy for. Lots of old blankets would be helpful too under the car to protect the new pipes during the fiddly stages of fitting.
I did once meet a BX-owning farmer with access to heavy-lifting machinery - he told me that he carefully put the car on its side in order to do this job. However, most of us don't have access to anything heavy-duty or safe enough for this approach......
I've replaced all 4 of the pipes front to back.
My advice, as DLM says, access and space are paramount.
The genuine pipes are actually shaped ready to fit which is very handy for locating bends etc.
If you unclip the pipes in the middle of the car and work backwards and forwards, replacing with the new as you go. Don't forget to lift the beginning of the pipes above the front subframe before you start.
I unbolted the rear subframe (easy job 4 bolts if I recall) and let it slip about 9 inches for clearance.
When you have done mine took ages to bleed so be patient.
My advice, as DLM says, access and space are paramount.
The genuine pipes are actually shaped ready to fit which is very handy for locating bends etc.
If you unclip the pipes in the middle of the car and work backwards and forwards, replacing with the new as you go. Don't forget to lift the beginning of the pipes above the front subframe before you start.
I unbolted the rear subframe (easy job 4 bolts if I recall) and let it slip about 9 inches for clearance.
When you have done mine took ages to bleed so be patient.
I've done the job once in 1995 on my old bx19 trs. As I recall I don't think it's possible to do the job properly without dropping the rear sub-frame.
To add to the advice already given I would say that it's best to use pre-formed pipes (you are not limited to buying from Citroen though).
Also remove and replace one pipe at a time, or at least make some good sketches of the pipe layouts prior to dismantling.
Mark
To add to the advice already given I would say that it's best to use pre-formed pipes (you are not limited to buying from Citroen though).
Also remove and replace one pipe at a time, or at least make some good sketches of the pipe layouts prior to dismantling.
Mark
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I have done it many years ago on (at the time) a 7yr old car. Wound up having to replace one of the suspension struts after making a mess of removing one of the unions.
I agree that dropping the subframe would make things easier, not sure how easy it will be to do that on an older car. It is possible to feed them through though. Just make sure they go through the right gap and not against the trailing arm.
It's certainly not a difficult job for a reasonably competent DIYer with plenty of time and patience.
My tip would be to cut the old pipes off where they go into the union and use a tightly fitting socket to minimise chances of rounding them off.
I agree that dropping the subframe would make things easier, not sure how easy it will be to do that on an older car. It is possible to feed them through though. Just make sure they go through the right gap and not against the trailing arm.
It's certainly not a difficult job for a reasonably competent DIYer with plenty of time and patience.
My tip would be to cut the old pipes off where they go into the union and use a tightly fitting socket to minimise chances of rounding them off.
Hi,
My old BX failed its mot, I cleaned the pipes with a wire brush and power washing, followed by waxoil, pasted all over the pipes. It passed the retest and did so for many years after.
When I replaced the pipes on my old BX, if you just think of the piping as a flow and return system (like central heating)it will help simplfy things. It took me about 30 mins per pipe. Give the piping clips and connections a good power washing and the a good soak with wd 40 first. This will help immensley and hygene is of the utmost as you dont want to get any crude in your system. Power up your system with the pressure release valve still open and run for about a minute and then close it. your car should then rise up evenly.
It is worthwhile, once you have checked your car for leaks, to waxoil the pipes and height correctors, in fact all over the underside of your car. Doing so, you will give many years to your car.
My old BX failed its mot, I cleaned the pipes with a wire brush and power washing, followed by waxoil, pasted all over the pipes. It passed the retest and did so for many years after.
When I replaced the pipes on my old BX, if you just think of the piping as a flow and return system (like central heating)it will help simplfy things. It took me about 30 mins per pipe. Give the piping clips and connections a good power washing and the a good soak with wd 40 first. This will help immensley and hygene is of the utmost as you dont want to get any crude in your system. Power up your system with the pressure release valve still open and run for about a minute and then close it. your car should then rise up evenly.
It is worthwhile, once you have checked your car for leaks, to waxoil the pipes and height correctors, in fact all over the underside of your car. Doing so, you will give many years to your car.
Hi Jonesy -
Have repiped a couple of BX'es and my CX. I did NOT find this job as "interesting" as replacing the dreaded BX Octopus.
One thing I remember from the first job was that I forgot to identify the pipes before I snipped them off (all in one go) - don't do that [B)]
This took me then more than half a day to work out from Haynes & any logic trying - plus identifying the bends on the new pipes.
Above submissions clearly tells what to go for - cleanliness - one pipe at a time - pre-bend pipes - no time waister removing old pipes (snip them !) - adequate work space under the car - patient bleeding.
A small but important reminder :
When fitting the pipe ends into component's pipe ports - be SURE the (new !) pipe seal is fitted onto the pipe - NOT into the pipe port - before inserting the pipe.
Of course the old seal must be worked out first - as they most often is stuck in the ports. A tiny hook on a hairpin or paperclip is a perfect removal tool.
This is to prevent the rather sharp pipe ends shears the seals on fitting. Lube the seal with LHM - grease the pipe nut threads with any good grease - even ALU paste into alloy components.
Also the pipe thru the nut should be greased.
Finally brush over the fitted pipe nuts with antirust sealer.
Things are then so much easier on later service works.
Don't be tempted to torque the pipe nuts. Let the tool's size and your normal handforce do the work - that's pretty much the correct torque.
Have repiped a couple of BX'es and my CX. I did NOT find this job as "interesting" as replacing the dreaded BX Octopus.
One thing I remember from the first job was that I forgot to identify the pipes before I snipped them off (all in one go) - don't do that [B)]
This took me then more than half a day to work out from Haynes & any logic trying - plus identifying the bends on the new pipes.
Above submissions clearly tells what to go for - cleanliness - one pipe at a time - pre-bend pipes - no time waister removing old pipes (snip them !) - adequate work space under the car - patient bleeding.
A small but important reminder :
When fitting the pipe ends into component's pipe ports - be SURE the (new !) pipe seal is fitted onto the pipe - NOT into the pipe port - before inserting the pipe.
Of course the old seal must be worked out first - as they most often is stuck in the ports. A tiny hook on a hairpin or paperclip is a perfect removal tool.
This is to prevent the rather sharp pipe ends shears the seals on fitting. Lube the seal with LHM - grease the pipe nut threads with any good grease - even ALU paste into alloy components.
Also the pipe thru the nut should be greased.
Finally brush over the fitted pipe nuts with antirust sealer.
Things are then so much easier on later service works.
Don't be tempted to torque the pipe nuts. Let the tool's size and your normal handforce do the work - that's pretty much the correct torque.
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ghostrider
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Jonesy,
Did my old Bx , dropping rear subframe difinitely helps, I also used the cupro nickel pipe as supplied by Pleiades and others (i'm not sure about GSF?) I also bought a pipe flaring tool to form the ends, the Pleiades pipe fittings are better as they are 10mm spanner size, but I've noticed that the caddy plating tends to rust off after a few years, at least the cupro nickel pipe wont rot, the plastic covered stuff is Ok until it gets scratched or you need to heat the fittings where they go into alloy like the rear struts and callipers
Pete
________
APPLE GAMES
Did my old Bx , dropping rear subframe difinitely helps, I also used the cupro nickel pipe as supplied by Pleiades and others (i'm not sure about GSF?) I also bought a pipe flaring tool to form the ends, the Pleiades pipe fittings are better as they are 10mm spanner size, but I've noticed that the caddy plating tends to rust off after a few years, at least the cupro nickel pipe wont rot, the plastic covered stuff is Ok until it gets scratched or you need to heat the fittings where they go into alloy like the rear struts and callipers
Pete
________
APPLE GAMES
Last edited by ghostrider on 22 Feb 2011, 05:44, edited 1 time in total.
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"but the car is old and its not worth spending that much on."
Interesting statement. If you think about it, why does the value of a car depreciate ?
The value falls with age and with mileage. Part of this is due to the fact that the car is no longer "showroom new" and part because things are starting to wear and may need work done to put things right. If it is a good car and if it's maintained well it could easily hold its own against a new car. Although the technology will be falling behind (another reason for loss of value I suppose).
I have always taken the view that, no matter what the age of the car, if a job needs doing then the fact that the job costs more than the value of the car should not put you off. The alternative is to scrap the "good" car and buy something else which may not be as reliable and will cost you a lot more money than the repair of the old one. 250 quid on this BX which possibly doesn't have much second hand value, sounds ok to me.
Interesting statement. If you think about it, why does the value of a car depreciate ?
The value falls with age and with mileage. Part of this is due to the fact that the car is no longer "showroom new" and part because things are starting to wear and may need work done to put things right. If it is a good car and if it's maintained well it could easily hold its own against a new car. Although the technology will be falling behind (another reason for loss of value I suppose).
I have always taken the view that, no matter what the age of the car, if a job needs doing then the fact that the job costs more than the value of the car should not put you off. The alternative is to scrap the "good" car and buy something else which may not be as reliable and will cost you a lot more money than the repair of the old one. 250 quid on this BX which possibly doesn't have much second hand value, sounds ok to me.