C5 2.0 HDI 110. Cold starting problems.

[samjmann]

Hello all,

I've owned this C5 2.0 VTR HDI (2003) 68kmiles for 8 years. It is slowly getting more and more difficult to start from cold. When the engine has been run, if only for a few mins, it will re-start easily. The original Varta battery has been replaced with a Japanese 'calcium' battery of upgraded capacity. The main thing is that the cranking speed, when cold is not that fast. If the battery is fully charged, the cranking speed is faster and the engine starts after around '6 compressions'. If the battery is anything less than 100%, the cranking speed drops to half of that when the battery is fully charged. It then takes 2-4 attempts to start and the cranking speed will drop sharply.

I've read on other posts that if the cranking speed is to slow, the injection system will cut off the fuel to two of the injectors. I'm sure if this is correct or not. It would appear that the starter motor might be part shorted. I've read on another forum that the starter motor on these cars has a 'gearbox' on the output shaft and that this can run tight.

I've got a Puma engined Transit 2012 2.2 100bhp that I use for work, the cranking speed of this must be 3x faster than that of my Citroen! Yes you guessed it, it starts first go.

The Citroen runs fine once started, emissions Ok, no misfires, and will do 45-55 mpg on a run.

I'm not sure if this is relevant, but last summer it was reluctant to start when HOT!. If I let the engine cool, it would start as normal. I changed the Cam Position Sensor on the top of the engine as there has been a few posts of this inhibiting a re-start. My local Citroen garage said that this would not stop the engine starting, but as I was having the cam belts changed< I got them to do this at the same time. My work mate has got a Picasso 2.0 Hdi 2002 90bhp, and his car would not start at all until the connector to the cam sensor was cleaned. Apparently, these 'Hall Sensors' as they are known, renowned for giving no output when hot.

What I'm trying to say is, that, I think I've got a electrical fault, rather than a fuel system problem. I work as a Tv engineer, so I'm OK with the electrics, but no good with the fuelling system!

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Regards,
SJM.

[RichardW]

C5s suffer from degregation of the starter motor for some reason (it doesn't affect Xantia HDis for instance). I suspect this is your problem if the battery is OK - although I would check the engine earth strap from the top of the gearbox first. The ECU needs to see at least 200 bar on the fuel injection rail before it will start injection - if the engine is not cranking fast enough, then it never reaches the pressure, and it will not start.

[Peter.N.]

I don't know much about calcium batteries but I thought they needed charging parameters, I know they use them on Fords and you have to replace them like for like.

The Hdi does need turning over fast to give instant starting, I have never had a problem with the starter motor on mine but I did on an XM, I took it apart and lubricated the reduction gear which about doubled its speed.

Poor hot starting can be a sign of a failing HP diesel pump, I had it with my C5 although it has done nearly 200,000 miles. It would start reasonably from cold but was almost impossible when hot, I fitted a secondhand one from ebay and it cured it. It seems that when the pump wears it cannot produce sufficient pressure from warm low viscosity fuel.

Peter

[samjmann]

Hi RichardW /Peter.N.

Thank you for the replies. I'll check the ground connections to and from the battery as you've mentioned. I'll do this immediately after a few attempts of starting a cold engine to see if there's any heat due to a high resistance connection. If all this proves OK I'll have to 'bite the bullet' and replace the starter motor.

I was told by a battery specialist that this was a 'direct replacement' for the Varta original. The makers website said the same, so I suppose it must be OK. The best thing of course would be to measure the cranking current when cold, and them compare it the Citroens spec'. Problem is; I haven't got a meter than measure 500Amps, and would the starting current be in the Workshop Manual? I don't think so!!

There is a post on the 'Honest John' forum over this, and it was the starter motor in the end too

One thing I've learnt is that there's no point in cranking the engine on a 3/4 flat battery, there'll be no fuel from the injectors anyway!

Thanks again for all the advice.

Cheers, SJM.

[myglaren]

For large DC currents like that you would normally use a voltmeter and a shunt, like this one.

[zs&tas]

Hi thought id chime in as i have had same issues with my car, turned out it was the starter and when i replaced it the old one was falling apart - shorting out the block and killing my battery. the new starter gets the engine spining nice and quick now. btw i had two options on starter when buying a new one, a 1.4kw and a 1.7kw. i went for the stronger one. its an easy job too. happy days.

[BX]

To measure starting current, charging current and to check for current drain you really need a clamp meter. The reason for using it to check for current drain is so that body computers are not prevented from going to sleep by interruptions in the supply. A 2L HDI should draw less than 250A ideally under 200A. Worn bushings are often the cause of lazy operation and high current consumption. This is due to magnetic inefficiency caused by the armature being off centre in the field. Extra wear can cause the armature to drag on the pole pieces. Other issues such as excessive friction in the reduction gears (as described above) can cause similar symptoms. Modern starters are far more efficient due to the use of permanent magnet motors which run at higher speeds but provide lower torque than previous series wound motors. The reduction train then multiplies the torque and divides the rpm to what is required by the engine. Most of these motors are repairable at moderate cost provided the armature is not damaged

[Monkeyfeet]

I've had two starter motors fail on the 2.2 ( same or similar to the 2.0 ? ). First was as far as I know, the original, second was a cheap replacement, lasted barely a year. Current one changed in France to a dealer sourced "genuine" part (took me all of 20 mins to do). Thing was, spinning speed wasn't much lower than normal before failure. They would just not turn over now and again, then complete fail. Brush assemblies sort of collapsed, turned to mush. C5's are definitely much heavier than BX's.....
(And the French and the Belgians are very, very, good at watching a car being push started)

[samjmann]

Hi all,

I know this is an old thread but I'm just putting a conclusion to the question.

Finally put an end to the starting problem, replaced the starter motor!. The new motor turns the engine over much much faster maybe 3-5 times or so and the engine is now always starting first time. The original starter motor finally gave up last week when the weather was a bit colder, the gearbox in the unit had seized. I'm not sure which rating motor has been fitted, but I'm not now drawing massive numbers of amps from the newish battery.

What the engine will be like restarting on a very hot day remains to be seen, but I'll let you know!

Thanks to all of you who took the time and trouble to answer.

Best regards, samjmann.

[Oliver53]

My picasso 2.0HDI had the similar problem as yours. It struggled to start when cold (5 degC below) since three years ago, and the situation got worse this year until it finally decided not to start at all. I took the starter motor off the engine, opened it up, then everything became clear: the brush set had worn out so badly that one of the brushes had totally gone, NOTHING left! and the commutator was also damaged.

I ordered and collected a reconditioned Remy starter motor from Eurocarparts but that was a waste of time because it just didn't match at all (What a rubbish online checking system eurocarparts got!). Then I decided to buy a set of bosch brush set including brush holder (my starter motor is a bosch 1.4kw one) for 20 quid, and a scrap motor of the same model for another 20, both off ebay including express delivery. Before the parts arrived I just parked the car on a bump start friendly hill beside my house in the night, and got some strong colleagues to push after work. That worked very well, genuinely recommended. With the scrap motor and new brush set, my own re-conditioned starter motor was quickly built and mounted onto the engine. Problem solved: now even at 3 degC (the lowest temp recently) it starts instantly.

[Peter.N.]

The reduction gear is often the cause of a slow starter, if you give it a good greasing it can give it a new lease of life.

Peter