Clutch pedal...meet floor! Gear lever...meet ceiling!

This is the Forum for all your Citroen Technical Questions, Problems or Advice.

Moderator: RichardW

Post Reply
sparksie
(Donor 2016)
Posts: 595
Joined: 04 Jan 2014, 22:35
Location: R.O.I.
My Cars:
x 33

Clutch pedal...meet floor! Gear lever...meet ceiling!

Post by sparksie »

Hi all.

I got a call at around 4 am, to say my father had had a fall and was having emergency plastic surgery to his face, following which he would need to be brought to the eye hospital for a checkup, to ensure no eye damage had occurred. Apparently he tripped over flat ground, while carrying several Sunday newspapers and landed on his face.
I decided to take the Citroen, as it's the cleanest car I have in at the moment.
It behaved flawlessly all the way to Dublin, and for over 20 miles of city driving with Dad on board.
However, on the way back, around 70 miles from home, while slowing for a roundabout, all that changed!
The clutch pedal went to the floor and stayed there, without disengaging drive.
Then, while dragging it out of gear, the gear lever came out in my hand.
Having avoided a collision by standing on the brake and stalling the engine, I found i could put the lever back and disengage gear (now the engine torque was removed, obviously).
I stuck it in first and cranked the starter, when a suitable gap in the traffic allowed me to join the roundabout and drove it home, matching revs to change gear.
The car is really living up to Citroen's reliability reputation. In my custody, this one has yet to make a trip without something breaking, or falling off!
I'm almost afraid to meet the lads in the morning. The ribbing is hurting already and they haven't started yet!
I don't yet know what's wrong, though I'm confident the release bearing hasn't popped through the pressure plate fingers.
It could be the cable, or the bulkhead, or a bracket at the bell-housing, or the pedal. Also, don't know what's supposed to keep the lever down in the hole in the floor. I have to actively lean down on it to keep it in place while shifting ratios, which obviously isn't right!
Having been away all day, I don't know whether the workshop is busy tomorrow, but it seems I have another Citroen day ahead of me.
Why am I seeing it as a virtue, that the car didn't strand me? What's up with that?
Bits falling off and crucial control mechanisms falling apart are unheard of in German, Japanese, Korean and even Italian models. In 30 years I've never known a gear lever to come out in the driver's hand! But nobody in the workshop will be at all surprised tomorrow, though there'll be plenty of amusement!
My first foray into Citroen ownership is certainly proving interesting...
Every trip is an adventure!
I'll stick with this one, because I'm pig headed like that, but I don't think I'm going to be repeating the experience!
I'll never understand the nutters who have several Citroens and try to convince sane people to buy them too.
There's another, less obvious problem to having a Citroen parked outside. People seem to think we like them and understand them, simply because we have one permanently parked outside. One character came over 100 miles to see the "new Citroen specialist" he's been told about.
Oh my GAWWWWWD!!!
Sparksie

2000 Xantia 1.9TurboD
Hell Razor5543
Donor 2023
Posts: 13726
Joined: 01 Apr 2012, 09:47
Location: Reading
My Cars: C5 Mk2 VTX+ estate.
x 2993

Re: Clutch pedal...meet floor! Gear lever...meet ceiling!

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

I had the clutch cable fail on Gracie a little over a year ago. The cable had failed as it had been incorrectly routed through one of the handbrake cable guides.

The most common clutch pedal failure is due to the clutch cable clip failing. The clip and spring are still available from Citroen, and the pair should cost less than £10. Mind you, replacing the clip is a job for a contortionist.

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... ip&start=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you need to replace the cable as well (and it is an auto adjustor type), try and get it from GSF (if there is one in your area). Citroen wanted £43, GSF charged me about £21.
James
ex BX 1.9
ex Xantia 2.0HDi SX
ex Xantia 2.0HDi LX
Ex C5 2.0HDi VTR
Ex C5 2.0HDi VTR

C5 2.2HDi VTX+
Yes, I am paranoid, but am I paranoid ENOUGH?
Out amongst the stars, looking for a world of my own!
User avatar
qprdude
Posts: 1754
Joined: 06 Apr 2012, 18:56
Location: Woking, Surrey
My Cars: Renault 5 TS, Renault 14ts, Citroen C5 Mk1, Renault Clio sport, Renault Laguna Privilege. Citroen C5 X7 Exclusive. Citroen DS5 D/sport . And around 25+ other brands from Morris Oxford to S Type jag and most things between.
x 10

Re: Clutch pedal...meet floor! Gear lever...meet ceiling!

Post by qprdude »

"Bits falling off and crucial control mechanisms falling apart are unheard of in German, Japanese, Korean and even Italian models."

You're avin a laugh. Surely that wasn't a serious comment?
Rick.

2013 Citroen DS 5 D/Sport
2007 Renault Clio Campus sport. 1.2l

Sometimes the change doesn't work.
sparksie
(Donor 2016)
Posts: 595
Joined: 04 Jan 2014, 22:35
Location: R.O.I.
My Cars:
x 33

Re: Clutch pedal...meet floor! Gear lever...meet ceiling!

Post by sparksie »

OK, slightly Tongue-in-Cheek, I'll admit.
However, with no other brand have I ever felt surprised to arrive at my destination with nothing having gone wrong!
Quite the contrary. Given mediocre maintenance and only average neglect, most cars manage to complete most commutes, with nothing having fallen off!
Why is it that Citroen in particular, though also Peugeot to some extent, are expected to need fettling to get to and from the local shop and any such trip that doesn't involve any problems is regarded as a triumph?
I'll be dragging this one inside this evening, if my colleagues can stop laughing at me for long enough to help push, so I'll hopefully have a chance to figure out what's up with it now.
The guys are already taking bets about what's next!
I can see a future where the corner currently occupied by my '85 Volvo is going to be shared by a '00 Xantia, though for a different reason!
I miss having leisure time that didn't necessarily involve getting dirty!
Sparksie

2000 Xantia 1.9TurboD
sparksie
(Donor 2016)
Posts: 595
Joined: 04 Jan 2014, 22:35
Location: R.O.I.
My Cars:
x 33

Re: Clutch pedal...meet floor! Gear lever...meet ceiling!

Post by sparksie »

To put it in perspective.
Many of our clients are elderly and need help to put air in tyres, never mind anything more technically demanding.
We see several '98-'99 Micras and the bpnnets are opened twice a year. Once for us to service them and once for the tester to do his stuff.
The Golf and Polo clones perform similarly, as do Pandas and Puntos (YES!).
We don't see any Hyundais regularly, yet, though there are plenty of them about. Make of that what you will...
Try treating a French car like that and see where it gets you!
The 206 is very popular around here, but we see them in between services, far more than anything else. We regard them as a "soft" car and, provided the owner accepts that, they give good service.
Sparksie

2000 Xantia 1.9TurboD
User avatar
qprdude
Posts: 1754
Joined: 06 Apr 2012, 18:56
Location: Woking, Surrey
My Cars: Renault 5 TS, Renault 14ts, Citroen C5 Mk1, Renault Clio sport, Renault Laguna Privilege. Citroen C5 X7 Exclusive. Citroen DS5 D/sport . And around 25+ other brands from Morris Oxford to S Type jag and most things between.
x 10

Re: Clutch pedal...meet floor! Gear lever...meet ceiling!

Post by qprdude »

Well I've had my C5 for coming up to two years and it has been trouble free. You do realise you are complaining about a 14 year old car? Get what you pay for I expect. In 45 years of motoring and maintenance, I've yet to encounter a perfect car. Sons 5 series BMW costs him an arm and a leg to keep on the road. Brother-in laws Honda Accord has just been swapped for a Merc due to the constant breakdowns. Wife's Renault Clio has never broken down since 2007 and the bonnet gets opened once a year for the service.
It's not fair to damn all French cars on the basis of your experiences with a 14 year old motor.
Rick.

2013 Citroen DS 5 D/Sport
2007 Renault Clio Campus sport. 1.2l

Sometimes the change doesn't work.
Peter.N.
Moderating Team
Posts: 11563
Joined: 02 Apr 2005, 16:11
Location: Charmouth,Dorset
My Cars: Currently:

C5 X7 VTR + Satnav Hdi estate Silver
C5 X7 VTR + Hdi Estate 2008 Red

In the past: 3, CX td Safaris and about 7, XM td estates. Lovely cars.
x 1199

Re: Clutch pedal...meet floor! Gear lever...meet ceiling!

Post by Peter.N. »

XMs seem to do that for the first couple of years of ownership, mine did but after I got to know my way round them and replaced everything they were good, the subsequent 13 years of ownership give me gave me about 20k miles per year of almost complete reliability, I think I owned six in that time and none of them developed serious faults apart from one head gasket, in spite of the fact that they were all high mileage, two of them having covered nearly 300,000.

The only hatch I owned I bought in Slough with no operative clutch and managed to get it down here without destroying anything. The thrust bearing had disintegrated.

The were all 2.1 manuals with a Bosch pump of course. 8-)

Peter
sparksie
(Donor 2016)
Posts: 595
Joined: 04 Jan 2014, 22:35
Location: R.O.I.
My Cars:
x 33

Re: Clutch pedal...meet floor! Gear lever...meet ceiling!

Post by sparksie »

qprdude wrote: It's not fair to damn all French cars on the basis of your experiences with a 14 year old motor.
Yes, I agree. That's not what I did, though.
Yes, my ownership experience so far, has been the pits. My life experience, however, as a garage proprietor and mechanic/auto-electrician, covers a wide range of cars, including French. I'm comparing like-for-like and 14 year old Peugeots need far more tlc than similar aged others. My Citroen, to be fair, is the only "modern" one I have any direct experience of and may well be an unusually bad one, but it has been 99% unreliable.
Without exception, the worst record of any car I've ever bought, over thirty years in the trade.
But it hasn't beaten me yet!!!
Sparksie

2000 Xantia 1.9TurboD
sparksie
(Donor 2016)
Posts: 595
Joined: 04 Jan 2014, 22:35
Location: R.O.I.
My Cars:
x 33

Re: Clutch pedal...meet floor! Gear lever...meet ceiling!

Post by sparksie »

Ok
Spent half of lunch in my Cit.
I took out the carpet over the driver's feet and the plastic cover with the fusebox door.
Then, using the dangling courtesy light for illumination, I could see the top of the pedal, with the hateful "clip" others have described.
All appears well in this department, with the inner cable moving at the same time as the pedal and, as far as I could tell by myself, the outer staying still.
Then I had to leave it, to answer the phone.
Hoping to get it over the pit later, so I can check the other end. It seems the reason the bay is available today is nobody's going to be here to man it, so I'm looking at solo pushing! Another activity I thought I'd never be engaging in again!
And the Cit's no sylph! Help!!!
Sparksie

2000 Xantia 1.9TurboD
sparksie
(Donor 2016)
Posts: 595
Joined: 04 Jan 2014, 22:35
Location: R.O.I.
My Cars:
x 33

Re: Clutch pedal...meet floor! Gear lever...meet ceiling!

Post by sparksie »

Right.
My first impression, borne out by a receipt for a recent clutch, turns out to be incorrect.
The bearing HAS popped through the diaphragm, or the fork has broken.
Whatever it is, it's inside the bell housing, so the 'box has to come out.
Cit's back in the corner, beside the Volvo.
A quick look in the diary leaves me thinking I'm going to be doing that in the open, because there are no two consecutive days free indoors.
Settled weather is in short supply again, too.
This car is not inclined to repay the effort I keep putting into it, is it?
Is there a "how to" that'll point out the differences between this and the Peugeot variants that use this engine and 'box?
There seem to be a lot more pipes and cables in the way on the Xantia than on the similarly sized 306 and 406 we're familiar with.
Not relishing the thought of freeing the O/S drive shaft carrier bearing with the car on the ground, but I know (from bitter experience) the gearbox won't go back on with the shaft securely attached to the back of the engine. And that's with room to manoevre, with no hydraulics in the way!
Oh Bother and Fiddlesticks and other less savoury expressions of discontent...
Sparksie

2000 Xantia 1.9TurboD
RichardW
Forum Treasurer
Posts: 10812
Joined: 07 Aug 2002, 17:12
Location: United Kingdom
My Cars: MK2 '17 C4GP 1.6 BlueHDi 120
'13 3008 1.6 HDi GripControl
x 983

Re: Clutch pedal...meet floor! Gear lever...meet ceiling!

Post by RichardW »

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... 11&t=23322" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Richard W
sparksie
(Donor 2016)
Posts: 595
Joined: 04 Jan 2014, 22:35
Location: R.O.I.
My Cars:
x 33

Re: Clutch pedal...meet floor! Gear lever...meet ceiling!

Post by sparksie »

Thanks Richard

Seems the additional complexity is largely an illusion.
One thing though. We had a Berlingo in, Summer before last I think, for an engine change.
The guys couldn't get the arm off the clutch rod and we were contemplating cutting it.
On the day, we couldn't source a replacement and the owner wasn't happy with the only other option... a used one from the scrappy.
I went on holidays, so wasn't involved in the rest of the job, but they got the engine out, new clutch kit fitted on the replacement and the new engine in, without destroying the stuck arm and release fork.
Now, I'm not saying it was easy, nor that I'd necessarily have approved the methods used, had I been around, but there's no denying they got the job done and it has given no trouble.
I wonder would the same not apply to the Xantia, which uses the same engine and gearbox, though with additional gubbins bolted to it and the Berlingo has a speedo cable instead of a speed sensor.
I'm expecting mine to come out without any release fork problems, as I'm pretty confident the bearing has popped through the diaphragm. If not, then the fork has broken, with the same result. No obstruction to removal inside the bell housing. Then I'll be able to play with the pin on the bench, in relative comfort.
I have a Quinton Hazel clutch kit, bought for a 206 diesel, that wasn't needed in the end. I'm rather hoping that'll fit, so not ordering anything until I have it apart. I can't justify taking over the workshop for what might well be two, or more, full days, so I'm probably going to be doing this outside in the yard. The gravel won't suit either the engine crane, or the trolley jack, so I reckon something a bit less civilized than Citrojim's approach will probably be occurring, though I may be able to lay some ply for the jack to run on, I suppose.
The only certain thing is, nobody's going to help me with this. They're enjoying watching me struggle too much.
I'll prove I'm right in the end, though... or die trying!
Sparksie

2000 Xantia 1.9TurboD
RichardW
Forum Treasurer
Posts: 10812
Joined: 07 Aug 2002, 17:12
Location: United Kingdom
My Cars: MK2 '17 C4GP 1.6 BlueHDi 120
'13 3008 1.6 HDi GripControl
x 983

Re: Clutch pedal...meet floor! Gear lever...meet ceiling!

Post by RichardW »

Don't think the Berlingo ever had the pull clutch of the 1.9TD - I helped change a 306 clutch (push type, probably similar to Berlingo) and we removed the pin in that, but it needed to be drilled out and persuaded with a big hammer! Pretty sure your 206 clutch won't fit either - for the same reason - 1.9TD pull clutch never used in the 206.
Richard W
sparksie
(Donor 2016)
Posts: 595
Joined: 04 Jan 2014, 22:35
Location: R.O.I.
My Cars:
x 33

Re: Clutch pedal...meet floor! Gear lever...meet ceiling!

Post by sparksie »

Hi again, Richard

Too long ago now, for me to remember accurately, but certainly the release bearing was very firmly attached to the clutch diaphragm and, initially at least, the fork wouldn't relinquish its hold on it because the arm wouldn't come round enough!
I can't find the new clutch kit to examine it at the moment, so I don't know which way it works.
The 206 in question is here, waiting to be stripped, before being weighed in. If we get a quiet time I might just start that and compare with what I'm trying to save in the Cit.
Have to confess, this morning I'm feeling a lot less up-beat and am actually considering letting the scrap truck take both.
I really do need a dependable clunker and I have nowhere to park it with the Cit continually beaking down.
Oh, I don't know...
Sparksie

2000 Xantia 1.9TurboD
flying clutchman
Posts: 321
Joined: 22 Oct 2009, 12:58
Location: brentwood essex
My Cars:
x 3

Re: Clutch pedal...meet floor! Gear lever...meet ceiling!

Post by flying clutchman »

Far from the bearing having gone throught the cover (usual PSA clutch failing) on the pull-type clutch it's usually the bearing ripped out of the cover. This gives you one huge advantage. If the pin is seized in the arm you can get the gearbox out and sort it while it's on the floor.It's nothing like a two-day job. It normally takes me about 4 hours as long as I can get the pin out of the arm ok. I'm working at the kerb by the way. Your clutch kit you've got is nowhere near similar to what you need, so you'd be better to get a kit in ready and you should be able to sort it in an afternoon
Post Reply