Re-map or tuning box? 2.0hdi

[jotto]

Just wondered if any one had any success with with either a remap or a tuning box on the 2.0hdi?
Was just reading through the forum earlier and found a post with dyno graphs which got me to thinking..... A quick google found a stage one remap, from 90 up to 115bhp for £75 ( plus £10 for the lead to upload it to the ECU ) or a tuning box on ebay for £83, 90 up to 106bhp, plug and play. Sure there must be others out there.

So, any one happy with the results? Any down sides? As long as the car is in good shape before hand and well looked after, any issues? I know insurance companies can be a bit funny about such things but each one is easy enough to reverse.
TIA.

[jgra1]

hi jotto

yes re insurance,, tell them because when it goes wrong, the bill could be big,

I have a tuning box.. plugs into rail (although its a pain to plug the rail connector in!) - cost £40 on ebay second hand,,

it has 10 settings and a switch, but I didn't get any instructions so I just have it on 10 and the switch on the green setting,, no idea about that,,

It has been ok on my car, noticeable useful power increase,,
then I had co0ld start problems, seems the pressure regulator was breaking.. and eventually took the tuning box off,, fixed the reg with a spare, car now starts fine.. may/will plug the box back in.,.

unless,

someone can tell me if there could be a connection with using a tuning box, and a failing pressure reg 3/4 weeks later.,,
been meaning to ask that,,

John

[jotto]

Cheers John.
Not sure that the box would cause the regulator to fail. From the very limited reading I have done, the box controls the injectors although I could be way off the mark. I guess there was a good reason Citroën decided 90bhp was enough.
I wonder what the main differences are between the 90 and the 110 engine.

hi jotto

yes re insurance,, tell them because when it goes wrong, the bill could be big,

I have a tuning box.. plugs into rail (although its a pain to plug the rail connector in!) - cost £40 on ebay second hand,,

it has 10 settings and a switch, but I didn't get any instructions so I just have it on 10 and the switch on the green setting,, no idea about that,,

It has been ok on my car, noticeable useful power increase,,
then I had co0ld start problems, seems the pressure regulator was breaking.. and eventually took the tuning box off,, fixed the reg with a spare, car now starts fine.. may/will plug the box back in.,.

unless,

someone can tell me if there could be a connection with using a tuning box, and a failing pressure reg 3/4 weeks later.,,
been meaning to ask that,,

John

[Hell Razor5543]

The main differences I am aware of is that the 110 has an intercooler and a different gearbox (ML5T as opposed to BE3). There probably are others, but I don't know what they are (but an expert would, and will probably let you know).

[wellad]

The tuning boxes alter the reading from the rail pressure sender, fooling the ECU into reading a lower pressure than what's actually present. The ECU increases rail pressure until it sees a correct reading, although the actual pressure is now far above normal. By increasing rail pressure, more diesel is injected than the ECU IQ map requests, which will lower your fuel economy throughout the range. Any tuning box that claims to increase fuel economy is simply incorrect, it's impossible to increase economy without a large scale remap. This is confused by the in car trip computer showing increased mileage, as more diesel is injected than the ECU requests, leading it to believe it's being more efficient than normal. This also causes a lot more smoke than a remap, as it can't account for throttle position, boost level, coolant temperature, etc. How safe this method is depends entirely on how much extra pressure you add, since the HP fuel pump must work harder to increase rail pressure. These tuning boxes are nothing but a potentiometer and a switch, using the pot as a voltage divider on the FRP sender. If you want to go this road, save yourself a fortune by reading up on using a potentiometer as a voltage divider. You can do the same thing as a tuning box with a £0.70 Maplin potentiometer.

A remap is a far safer and more practical alternative, once you use a custom map. The ECU comprises of many different maps, which it looks up using various sensor readings to figure out how much diesel to inject on each stroke. The idea is the mapper will look at the MAF sensor mainly, and work out the strongest air/fuel ratio for each point on the map without causing smoke. A remap will only use extra diesel over stock when you request it, i.e., at wide open throttle. At cruise conditions the map remains the same as original. By modifying injection advance and rail pressure, economy can increase slightly under cruise conditions. I say custom map, as there are many different versions of ECU fitted to the HDI. There are very generic maps on the internet, for sale on ebay, etc., that can brick ECUs, disable the immobiliser, and cause all sorts of strange bugs if they're not made for your particular ECU version. It's possible to make your own custom tune, all you need is a Galletto cable that you've mentioned, and free software off the internet used to identify, modify and recalculate checksums for your ECU software. I spent 3 weeks picking apart the software off my 110 C5, and created my own map that runs at 150 bhp with just a decat and panel filter. It's a very simple remap that doesn't look at anything except WOT, so the car is perfectly standard at other throttle positions. The £75 map is by Steve on HDI tuning I believe, who is very well regarded in Puegeot tuning circles. I haven't bought any of his services, but I did consult with him on my own remap and he was very helpful.

The differences between the 90 and 110 on the C5 at least are an intercooler, electronic boost control, a stronger gearbox with a DMF, a physically different turbo (KKK K03 as opposed to a GT15) and of course the different ECU software. I would of course suggest a remap as the better course of action, it's far more accurate than sensor trickery. The only caveat is to ensure that you use a reputable tuner, as there's far more to go wrong. And of course, don't even look at ebay for maps, or use the generic ones that come with the Galletto cable!

[taffy]

very good bit of info there
nice one

[Hell Razor5543]

Sorry, should have looked at the signature. I thought you were asking about the Xantia 90/110.

[jgra1]

interesting Wellad.. I agree in that I doubt a tuning box could increase power and economy, although I often hear it,

I can say though, that if the economy on the open road suffers, its not by much.. I think a full car did south of france to UK at around 47mpgs fully loaded.. 2 months ago... I must admit, I don't spend a lot of time trying to measure this, but A full tank and a decent mileage shows the general way things are, to a point,,
the xtra horses, however they come, are very useful in a C5 110, missing mine badly and armache from gearchanges now
John

[Northern_Mike]

My experience with the Berlingo shows an improvement in economy with the tuning box on.

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[jgra1]

Mike, as a help to me, does yours have different settings? is yours on an economy one?
John

[Northern_Mike]

It's got a screw on it which I presume turns a pot. I had it screwed all the way in until the EML came on, then backed it off a bit. Looking at Lexia, the pressure doesn't go that much higher than standard. Can't remember the numbers but it wasn't horrendously over. I'll do it again when it's dry and post the pressure differences.

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[jgra1]

Will do same with mine

[miked]

The tuning boxes alter the reading from the rail pressure sender, fooling the ECU into reading a lower pressure than what's actually present....... You can do the same thing as a tuning box with a £0.70 Maplin potentiometer.

I agree with everything you said about the devices which simply read the rail pressure Wellad, but not all 'Tuning boxes' are equal.
I have one (in my '03 Xsara Hdi 110) which sits between the ECU and the Injectors. (By 'between' I mean the loom from the ecu to the injectors is plugged into the box, and the cable from the box is plugged into the socket which the engine loom was plugged in to) As far as I can tell, it has a pretty clever microprocessor inside which alters the injector pulses based on engine speed, rate of acceleration etc.

I have owned the car from new and fitted the box about 6 years ago. Fuel consumption cruising didn't change. The 'fun factor' really did improve. My previous car was a Xsara 1.8 VTR Coupe and I missed the fun of a 'revvy' petrol car when I first bought the current motor. The fact I still have the car so long after fitting the tuning box must say something.

I know I'm talking about a Xsara but the same box was advertised for any 110 HDi.

a stronger gearbox with a DMF

Except on a Xsara

[wellad]

My experience with the Berlingo shows an improvement in economy with the tuning box on.

It's simply impossible with a tuning box to increase economy. Think about it, it fools the ECU into injecting more diesel, so how can it use less fuel? By fine tuning many maps on the ECU with the help of a rolling road, economy can be increased a couple of percent, but this is highly specialised and certainly not attainable with a plug in box. As I said, the trip computer will show an increase in MPG due to more diesel being injected than the ECU requests, leading it to believe it's getting more bang per cc injected. But if you measure your real world usage from a full tank to another full tank, it can't be more efficient. Best case it remains the same, unless you use the extra power on tap the box gives you. They're definitely a viable option for more power, but it annoys me when tuning box sellers claim "a 15% decrease in fuel consumption".

The tuning boxes alter the reading from the rail pressure sender, fooling the ECU into reading a lower pressure than what's actually present....... You can do the same thing as a tuning box with a £0.70 Maplin potentiometer.

I agree with everything you said about the devices which simply read the rail pressure Wellad, but not all 'Tuning boxes' are equal.
I have one (in my '03 Xsara Hdi 110) which sits between the ECU and the Injectors. (By 'between' I mean the loom from the ecu to the injectors is plugged into the box, and the cable from the box is plugged into the socket which the engine loom was plugged in to) As far as I can tell, it has a pretty clever microprocessor inside which alters the injector pulses based on engine speed, rate of acceleration etc.

I have owned the car from new and fitted the box about 6 years ago. Fuel consumption cruising didn't change. The 'fun factor' really did improve. My previous car was a Xsara 1.8 VTR Coupe and I missed the fun of a 'revvy' petrol car when I first bought the current motor. The fact I still have the car so long after fitting the tuning box must say something.

To be honest I haven't seen that type of box myself, I've only seen the generic FRP types being advertised. It's possible that it could function more like a piggyback ECU, but ideally it would plug into more than just the injectors. Otherwise it has the same effect as modifying the injection duration map on the ECU, which results in the same scenario as an FRP box - more diesel being injected than the ECU is accounting for

I much prefer the feel of a torquey diesel after remapping my C5, it's way more fun to bury the throttle at low speed and feel the turbo kick rather than wait for a petrol to rev out. I might change my mind if I ever get a chance to own a V6 C5 though

a stronger gearbox with a DMF

Except on a Xsara

As I said, my own experience is limited to the C5. Was the Xsara 110 not given the ML5 without a DMF like some of the Peugeots though? I have certainly seen 406s with the ML5 and a solid flywheel.

[Northern_Mike]

My experience with the Berlingo shows an improvement in economy with the tuning box on.

It's simply impossible with a tuning box to increase economy. Think about it, it fools the ECU into injecting more diesel, so how can it use less fuel? By fine tuning many maps on the ECU with the help of a rolling road, economy can be increased a couple of percent, but this is highly specialised and certainly not attainable with a plug in box. As I said, the trip computer will show an increase in MPG due to more diesel being injected than the ECU requests, leading it to believe it's getting more bang per cc injected. But if you measure your real world usage from a full tank to another full tank, it can't be more efficient.

I don't have a trip computer. It's measured from tank to tank. Sorry to upset your little theory, but it gives an increase of about 5mpg with the box on, every time.

I imagine this is because I can use a higher gear than I could before i.e. I can happily potter along at 30mph in 4th or 40mph in 5th on a light throttle, whereas before I could not, so the engine would be revving harder thus using more fuel. You're not taking all the variables into account.

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