Xantia Electric Windows Gremlins.

[rory_perrett]

I think I maybe answering my own question here but would welcome the collective wisdom of the forum, and, once again, apologies for what might become a long post.

Went out to use the Xantia for the first time in quiet a few days and the battery was a bit run down, enough to prevent me from starting the car. This could be a side issue from the window problem, but the window problem could be the cause of the drain on the battery.

Anyway, while I was sorting out getting the car started I noticed that the front window switches were illuminated even when the ignition was off. Now while I would have thought that the bulbs in the switches (and I believe from the wiring diagram that they are LEDs) wouldn’t have much impact on the battery over several days, they are not supposed to be on when the ignition is off.

Checked the operation of the front windows and they go up and down without the ignition on which certainly isn’t right.
First thought was that the window power relay had failed on - pulled what I think is the window relay (middle one of the 3 green relays just above driver’s feet) no change.

Assuming I had pulled the right relay, I then pulled fuse F27 (permanent 12v feed to windows switched by relay) window switch lights go out windows don’t work.

Looking at the wiring diagram in the Haynes manual, shows that the permanent live 12v feed from fuse F27 goes to components 6035 and 6038 which are the window motors in the doors before the window power relay. The supply that is switched by on by the window power relay when the ignition is switched on (Line B27 to relay, Line 600 leaving relay) also goes to the window motors in the doors.

Not had my meter on the car yet but I am assuming that somewhere there is a short between the unswitched supply B27 and the 600 circuit which should be switched by the relay but I suspect is now permanently live.

My plan is to start looking for the fault in places where the two circuits B27 and 600 coexist, ie at the window motors and in the loom where the wires might be running together, at the relay and into the doors.

I could be in for a long hunt.

[Mandrake]

The window winder button lights (and hence winders) will come on in the accessory position but not in the key off position, so if yours still work in key off that's more than likely your battery drain problem as the lights would draw a good few hundred milliamps together, as there is also two sets of illuminated buttons for the rear windows, not to mention the drain of the window controllers themselves.

Anything else in the car seem to work with the key off that shouldn't ? That might give some more clues.

If you're not sure of the accuracy of your Haynes wiring diagrams (there are a lot of model specific variants) and your car is a S2 then PM me your VIN number and I'll try to post the exact wiring diagrams for your car for the window winders, which will also include the physical wiring layouts.

[rory_perrett]

Simon

Thanks that could be very useful. It is a Series 2 Xantia Exclusive HDi vin number VF7**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff].

Regards

Rory

[citroenxm]

My guess is Roy you are possibly getting a cross Short Cuircuit in the conduit between the Door and A pillar, which broken wires are a common thing.. causing all sorts of issues

Try best you can to peel back the Grommet and inspect the wires between the door and pillar, EVEN open your door and try the switchs then, the contact could get broken with the door open. This will help narrow the issue down..

[taffy]

yep i got broken/damaged wires between body and door....my windows work if the doors closed lol!

[rory_perrett]

Managed a bit of a look today. The 600 circuit is showing around 10v when it should be zero when the ignition is off (Battery voltage 12.5v). The problem is not in the driver's door motor. Had a look at the loom between the door and body on the driver's side and nothing obvious there. Will have a look at the passenger side when I have a bit of time. Think this is going to be a fair old hunt!
At the moment I'm pulling fuse F27 when I park the car which is a bit of a faff but at least it stops the battery drain.

[citroenxm]

what else is on F27 cuircuit... JUST the windows?

[rory_perrett]

If I remember (not got the book infront of me) according to Haynes F27 is only the electric windows power supply.

[Mandrake]

I've extracted the diagrams rory, but I've run into a problem - despite selecting the correct model and specs for your car based on the VIN number there are TWO different sets of wiring diagrams with differences, and I'm not sure which one is correct for your car!

After studying them for a while the main differences seems to be that the earlier (?) revision - "60" has only one window controller in the drivers door and no controller in the passenger door. (The passenger door switches are just wired directly to the motor) It also appears that only one of the two switches on the drivers door has illumination.

On this version the drivers door motor and controller is 6045, switches are 6005 and 6010, the passenger door motor is 6040 and passenger switches 6000. I believe the only real reason for the controller is the "auto-wind" feature where holding the button for a second then releasing will cause it to continue to wind subject to anti-pinch. So this "early" version must only have auto-wind on the drivers door.

The later revision "60.1" has a separate controller in BOTH doors, so I'm assuming that means both doors have the "auto-wind" and anti-pinch features. Does your passenger door have auto-wind as well ? On this version the drivers door motor and controller is 6035 and switches are 6005, 6010. The passenger door motor and controller is 6038 and switch is 6000.

If you can confirm whether your passenger door has auto-wind I'll post the correct diagrams.

Regarding whether anything else shares F27 I believe according to the diagram the answer is yes, as the terminal on BF00 is labelled 1A rather than 1 - implying that there is a 1B. I checked the wiring diagrams for the rear window winders (I can post those as well if you have rear electric winders) and they also say 1A implying that while the rear winders share F27 too that there is still some other unrelated circuit 1B which is sharing the fuse as well.

Without laboriously going through all of the other electrical wiring diagrams I don't know how to find which other circuit is sharing the fuse however - unless you can check the owners manual to see if anything else is indicated for that fuse. If I know what it might be I could check the appropriate diagram to confirm it.

[rory_perrett]

Simon

Thanks that is very useful, especially the bit about A and B notation which I didn't know. The passenger window does have auto-wind, and although the Haynes doesn't show it, I assumed the rear windows were also on F27.I wonder if the electric sunroof is also supplied from F27.

Cheers
Rory

[rory_perrett]

Just checked, F27 doesn't supply rear windows or sunroof.

[Mandrake]

Sorry you're right, I misread the diagram. F10 should supply the rear window winders not F27, however the fact it says 1A does still mean that something else is sharing F27.

Here are the diagrams for the front winders:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/782 ... 335801.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/782 ... 335801.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/782 ... 335801.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And here are the rear winders just in case:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/782 ... 335801.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/782 ... 335801.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/782 ... 335801.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[rory_perrett]

Simon

Thanks once again, the diagrams are great.

I've looked through the rest of the Haynes wiring diagrams and F27 doesn't get a mention other than for the front windows, however as we know the Haynes is not a complete set. Having remove fuse F27 I seem to have cured my battery drain problem as the car started this morning no problem, and sofar driving around without the fuse in place I haven't found anythingelse on the car that isn't working. OK I've not gone through everything but if there is something else run off F27 its quite obscure.

[Mandrake]

Hi Rory,

I checked my owners manual and it only mentions F27 as front window winders and F10 as rear window winders, so despite the suggestion in the diagram that something else might be sharing F27 I think for now its safe to assume that even if there is something else sharing F27 that the problem is in the winder circuit - the fact your winders work with the key off and the LED's are permanently lit is a clue that that's where the real problem is.

I've been thinking about what you said about how there is 10 volts on the 600 line all the time (I assume that increases to 12.5v when you turn the key on ?) and that not only are the LED's lit with the key off but the winders work too - the winder fuses are 30A so I'm guessing that they draw a LOT of current, at least 10A, which means if you do have a short on the 600 line from the permanent feed it must be a pretty solid short to be able to operate the winders.

When you say its not the drivers door "motor" how did you check this ? The motor is not shown independently on the wiring diagram, 6035 is actually the auto-wind controller and the motor is connected to the controller "internally" on the diagram.

Did you measure the voltage on the 600 line at pin 4 on the drivers door controller, with the controller unplugged and it still had 10 volts ? If so I would agree that the problem doesn't lie in the door controller.

What happens if you remove F30 - do the winders stop working without the key then ? F30 supplies many things including the dashboard but also feeds the coil for relay 6021. Also check to make sure there is only voltage on F30 (when fitted) with the key on.

After looking at my diagrams do you think you were removing the correct relay earlier ? It can be hard to identify the correct relay sometimes and I've noticed that the relay layout of the diagrams is not always correct either. (Two of the under bonnet relays on my car are reversed compared to where the diagrams say they should be)

From studying the diagrams there can only be a limited number of causes for this problem - the coil feed to the relay may not be turning off with the key (although that would cause your dashboard to stay on unless someone has tampered with the wiring) the relay contact could be welded closed, the passenger door controller could have a short in it (assuming the drivers door one is ok) or there is a short in the wiring...

I would try checking F30 first as above and if that doesn't give any clues I think you'll need to try unplugging the passenger door controller to see if the drivers door winder light goes out.

[rory_perrett]

Yes the 10v on line 600 is there when the ignition is off, switching the ignition on brings this up to 12.5v (ie battery voltage). As you say with the ignition off the window winder still work so its a substantial short.

Sorry being a bit lazy with the terminology, by driver's side "motor" I mean module. Tested by unpluging the connector at the module in the door and testing, it was here that I was getting 10v on pin 4 and 12.5v on pin 5, both with the ignition off. The pin 5 is as expected as that is the permanent live supply from F27.

I'm 99% sure I have the right relay, partly because it has a neat little label on it saying 6021 Window relay which I stuck on sometime in the past. (Must be getting old as I don't remember doing it). That relay is working correctly, The coil of the relay is connected to fuse F30 and when removed Pin 3 is showing 12.5v and pin 5 10v with the ignition off. Removing the relay and/or fuse F30 still results in the windows working with the ignition off. Pin 1 of the relay (feed from F30) is Zero volts with ignition off and 12.5v ignition on.

My conclusion is that because removing fuse F27 stops the windows from working and line 600 is live when it shouldn't be the cause has to be a connection between Circuits 27 and 600 that shouldn't be there.

This connection must be able to allow a fair current to flow. If it was a wire to wire short I would expect it to show 12.5v with the meter if it was a good connection, or breakdown / get hot when the windows were operated and a fair current demanded. Perhaps I should operate both windows together and see if it can still supply sufficent current.

More likely to me is that the F27/600 connection is through a component and that component has resistance that is causing the 2.5v drop.