Less than 2 years from new spheres ?
Moderator: RichardW
Less than 2 years from new spheres ?
Hi All,
When I bought this Xantia in March 2012 I fitted a full set of new IFHS spheres from AEP.
Ride quality has generally been very good (particularly after fixing an air leak on tank to pump line and performing the tank modification) up until about 2 months ago when I started noticing the ride wasn't what it should be, and decided that I would replace the spheres again next spring, after only 2 years.
Well in the last week the ride has got much worse, very quickly. I seldom do Citrerobics or lift the suspension fully up, but I've done that a few times over the last week and the ride has got dramatically worse since then. At first I thought maybe the ride height was too low or too high due to sticky height correctors, (I did drive through a foot deep flood last week which I thought might have caused the height corrector linkages to get soaked and start seizing) but after a few bounce tests I think that I have two punctured front strut spheres.
In "soft" mode both front and rear suspension have quite a bit of movement - so the hydractive spheres are ok at least, or at least not punctured. But in hard mode (engine off, doors closed for 30 seconds) the front suspension is absolutely rigid with no give at all even with my 88Kg bouncing on it, and it wasn't like that a couple of months ago. The rear suspension in hard mode is also very very stiff although has a very slight amount of movement.
I know the damping is very heavy in hard mode making it difficult to judge with a bounce test but you normally can at least get an inch or so of movement if you bounce it hard but I can't really get any movement at all in hard mode. When driving every time it switches to hard mode (taking off from an intersection or turning sharp for example) the ride is suddenly obviously hard, bouncy and fidgety.
In soft mode it tends to "rock" side to side over road undulations, as well as feeling like there is a lack of damping for parallel undulations - both signs of low gas pressure in the strut spheres of a Hydractive 2 system.
Fully pressurising the suspension with spheres that are very low in gas runs the risk of puncturing the diaphragms, could it be that all my strut spheres were very low in gas in the last couple of months and that when I did a few sessions of Citrerobics in the last week that the front strut spheres have gone pop ? The rear ones if they haven't gone pop can't be far behind.
Anyone had such poor sphere life before ? They've only been on the car 21 months and done about 8000 miles, and if they're not punctured they're very close.
I've normally got at least 3 years out of standard spheres and the long life types last about 10 years, so to say I'm disappointed is an understatement. I'm not relishing the thought of having to change spheres in the middle of winter, when I thought they would last at least until the spring!
Also, does anyone know if its possible to obtain the long life multilayer diaphragm front spheres for a Xantia, (the ones with the three dimples around the filler cap) or do none of the after market companies do them ? They really do last a long time compared to the standard types - and I notice from service.citroen.com that my Xantia was originally fitted with them.
When I bought this Xantia in March 2012 I fitted a full set of new IFHS spheres from AEP.
Ride quality has generally been very good (particularly after fixing an air leak on tank to pump line and performing the tank modification) up until about 2 months ago when I started noticing the ride wasn't what it should be, and decided that I would replace the spheres again next spring, after only 2 years.
Well in the last week the ride has got much worse, very quickly. I seldom do Citrerobics or lift the suspension fully up, but I've done that a few times over the last week and the ride has got dramatically worse since then. At first I thought maybe the ride height was too low or too high due to sticky height correctors, (I did drive through a foot deep flood last week which I thought might have caused the height corrector linkages to get soaked and start seizing) but after a few bounce tests I think that I have two punctured front strut spheres.
In "soft" mode both front and rear suspension have quite a bit of movement - so the hydractive spheres are ok at least, or at least not punctured. But in hard mode (engine off, doors closed for 30 seconds) the front suspension is absolutely rigid with no give at all even with my 88Kg bouncing on it, and it wasn't like that a couple of months ago. The rear suspension in hard mode is also very very stiff although has a very slight amount of movement.
I know the damping is very heavy in hard mode making it difficult to judge with a bounce test but you normally can at least get an inch or so of movement if you bounce it hard but I can't really get any movement at all in hard mode. When driving every time it switches to hard mode (taking off from an intersection or turning sharp for example) the ride is suddenly obviously hard, bouncy and fidgety.
In soft mode it tends to "rock" side to side over road undulations, as well as feeling like there is a lack of damping for parallel undulations - both signs of low gas pressure in the strut spheres of a Hydractive 2 system.
Fully pressurising the suspension with spheres that are very low in gas runs the risk of puncturing the diaphragms, could it be that all my strut spheres were very low in gas in the last couple of months and that when I did a few sessions of Citrerobics in the last week that the front strut spheres have gone pop ? The rear ones if they haven't gone pop can't be far behind.
Anyone had such poor sphere life before ? They've only been on the car 21 months and done about 8000 miles, and if they're not punctured they're very close.
I've normally got at least 3 years out of standard spheres and the long life types last about 10 years, so to say I'm disappointed is an understatement. I'm not relishing the thought of having to change spheres in the middle of winter, when I thought they would last at least until the spring!
Also, does anyone know if its possible to obtain the long life multilayer diaphragm front spheres for a Xantia, (the ones with the three dimples around the filler cap) or do none of the after market companies do them ? They really do last a long time compared to the standard types - and I notice from service.citroen.com that my Xantia was originally fitted with them.
Simon
1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White
2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
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2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White
2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
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Re: Less than 2 years from new spheres ?
IFHS spheres come with 2 year warranty. Maybe you can get a free replacement if you are still under warranty.
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C5 2005 2.0 HDI 138
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Re: Less than 2 years from new spheres ?
It also depends on mileage of course but I used to be able to get 60k or so from a set.
Peter
Peter
Re:
Where from ?addo wrote:Lifespan sounds about right. The genuine multicouche spheres cost me $115 per corner with airfreight but untaxed.
Just looked on service.citroen.com - £82 for the front Hydractive regulator sphere, and £106 each for the front strut spheres. At that price I'll just continue to buy £20 IFHS spheres and replace them more often
(There's nothing in the listing that confirms that its a multicouche sphere either, as Citroen sold and fitted both types)
Simon
1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White
2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White
2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
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1995 Xantia 1.9 D SX Auto Dark green
1977 CX 2400 Pallas C-Matic 'Aphrodite' Regatta Blue
1982 GSA Pallas SE Silver Pearl
1980 CX 2000 Reflex Vallelunga Red
1978 CX 2400 Pallas C-Matic 'Prometheus' Midnight blue
1984 BX 14E 'Cecil the slugmobile' Maroon
1987 Fiat Panda 'the mighty panda' - x 98
Re: Less than 2 years from new spheres ?
Hi mandrake, do you have a sphere tester? If not I'm fairly close to you and can pop them on the tester - takes 5 minutes if you want
Graeme
Graeme
Graeme M
2008 C5 Exclusive Tourer 2.0 HDi
2008 C5 Exclusive Tourer 2.0 HDi
Re:
Anywhere that speaks English ?addo wrote:I bought mine from Midi Auto Lorient.
Do you know who the OEM supplier of the multicouche spheres are ? I'm assuming its not IFHS and that Midi Auto Lorient are just a reseller...
Thanks, I'll check that out.If you select your car by body and engine, not VIN, it will describe each of the spheres by type.
Simon
1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White
2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White
2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
Re: Less than 2 years from new spheres ?
Hi Graeme,aerodynamica wrote:Hi mandrake, do you have a sphere tester? If not I'm fairly close to you and can pop them on the tester - takes 5 minutes if you want
Graeme
Thanks for the offer! I'm in Coatbridge and work in Glasgow so I'm probably not that far from you... the only thing is I'm not sure when I would get a chance to look at it as the time leading up to Christmas is hectic both at work and home It might be that the spheres will have to soldier on until after Christmas.
I was trying to do another quick bounce test on the car last night and it didn't seem quite as rigid (in hard mode) as I first thought so I think I need to check a bit more carefully before I throw money at spheres. The front suspension does have a tendency to sit too high, but only intermittently (I think the manual override linkage is out of adjustment or slightly seized) so I'm wondering if driving through a deep puddle a week ago has made the front linkage a bit more sticky.
I plan to have another quick look at it on the weekend to try to confirm whether its ride height related or sphere related and go from there.
Simon
1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White
2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White
2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
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Re: Less than 2 years from new spheres ?
If you ask CitroJim (if he hasn't already read this), he has built a sphere tester (using, amongst other things, a LHM pump and a pressure gauge) so I would imagine that he could tell you how to make one, and what you will need.
James
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Re: Less than 2 years from new spheres ?
Citroen have a second tier parts brand called 'Eurorepar', aimed at older cars and at lower prices.
The retail price of spheres are £61.58 including VAT each, compared to the original genuine Citroen ones at £100+.
They are listed on Citroen Service, but you'll need to search without a VIN number, select Xantia 2, then to narrow down the search select 'saloon' and ESJ9 engine.
The Eurorepar spheres all start with part number V587 then 3 digits. E.g. Main accumulator is V587001
In the description in says 'NOK' Multi-layer membrane. Also the descriptions for some say of the spheres say either 'Desmopan' or 'Urepan, which I think refers to the membrane material. I believe the Desmopan spheres are the latest Multi layer membrane types.
Last week I bought a set of Eurorepar spheres for a friend's xantia V6, they've yet to be fitted. Despite having Eurorepar labels on the boxes the spheres themselves look identical to the genuine Citroen ones, symbols, size, shape, colour (they have all been painted grey for many years now). Knowing that Citroen manufacture spheres themselves I suspect the Eurorepar ones are identical to the genuine ones, but I don't know this for sure.
In the past I've only ever fitted genuine Citroën spheres, but from now on I think I'll be using these.
The retail price of spheres are £61.58 including VAT each, compared to the original genuine Citroen ones at £100+.
They are listed on Citroen Service, but you'll need to search without a VIN number, select Xantia 2, then to narrow down the search select 'saloon' and ESJ9 engine.
The Eurorepar spheres all start with part number V587 then 3 digits. E.g. Main accumulator is V587001
In the description in says 'NOK' Multi-layer membrane. Also the descriptions for some say of the spheres say either 'Desmopan' or 'Urepan, which I think refers to the membrane material. I believe the Desmopan spheres are the latest Multi layer membrane types.
Last week I bought a set of Eurorepar spheres for a friend's xantia V6, they've yet to be fitted. Despite having Eurorepar labels on the boxes the spheres themselves look identical to the genuine Citroen ones, symbols, size, shape, colour (they have all been painted grey for many years now). Knowing that Citroen manufacture spheres themselves I suspect the Eurorepar ones are identical to the genuine ones, but I don't know this for sure.
In the past I've only ever fitted genuine Citroën spheres, but from now on I think I'll be using these.
Shaun
C6 3.0 HDi Exclusive - 2010
SM 3.0 - 1972
DS 23 Pallas - 1975
GSA Pallas C-Matic - 1982
C3 Pluriel - 2009
C6 3.0 HDi Exclusive - 2010
SM 3.0 - 1972
DS 23 Pallas - 1975
GSA Pallas C-Matic - 1982
C3 Pluriel - 2009
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1993 Xantia 1.9 TD VSX Mk1 Sinker A.K.A Slugmobile 13'
'Old Katy'
previous convictions: totaling 52litres of LHM in one go:
1968 ID19B 'Old Polly' Stellar white
1993 Xantia 1.9 TD SX Mk1 Sinker Silver
1992 XM 2.0 SEi Turbo Manual Anthracite Grey
1982 CX 20 Pallas 'Old Goldy'
1993 XM 2.1 SD Auto Light blue
1993 Xantia 1.9 TD SX Mk1 Sinker light Blue
1982 BX 16 TRS 'Cyril' Vallelunga Red
1995 Xantia 1.9 D SX Auto Dark green
1977 CX 2400 Pallas C-Matic 'Aphrodite' Regatta Blue
1982 GSA Pallas SE Silver Pearl
1980 CX 2000 Reflex Vallelunga Red
1978 CX 2400 Pallas C-Matic 'Prometheus' Midnight blue
1984 BX 14E 'Cecil the slugmobile' Maroon
1987 Fiat Panda 'the mighty panda' - x 98
Re: Less than 2 years from new spheres ?
No bother Simon, I can get the sphere tester this evening and keep it in the boot until we get a free spot. I can be free midst evenings excerpt Thursday this week, free Saturday too.
Both the front and rear height corrector mechanisms were seized on mine - I removed and rebuilt the front one finally soaking out over night in a bath of wd40 - rebuilt the corrector valve and refitted it with a new plastic link. Out now works very well and improved the ride a lot too. The rear was so bad that the little ball joint was breaking off, pivot studded and then when freed, showed a yard of free play, I just plumped for a brand new one and the rear ride is also brilliant now, obviously the spheres have to be good but the correctors make a large difference to the ride
Both the front and rear height corrector mechanisms were seized on mine - I removed and rebuilt the front one finally soaking out over night in a bath of wd40 - rebuilt the corrector valve and refitted it with a new plastic link. Out now works very well and improved the ride a lot too. The rear was so bad that the little ball joint was breaking off, pivot studded and then when freed, showed a yard of free play, I just plumped for a brand new one and the rear ride is also brilliant now, obviously the spheres have to be good but the correctors make a large difference to the ride
Graeme M
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Re: Less than 2 years from new spheres ?
@addo: Do you have a link for Midi Auto?
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Re: Less than 2 years from new spheres ?
PM sentaerodynamica wrote:No bother Simon, I can get the sphere tester this evening and keep it in the boot until we get a free spot. I can be free midst evenings excerpt Thursday this week, free Saturday too.
My rear height corrector linkage is definitely sticky and has been since I've had the car - I've greased it and worked it as much as possible in-situ, but it still has quite a bit of overshoot so it never settles at quite the same height - when going up it stops too high by about 15mm, when going down it stops too low by about 15mm, and yes that difference does affect the ride quality a lot. It's also quick to rise during acceleration, but quite slow to fall when lifting off, although I think that is a common trait with Hydractive 2 Xantia's at the rear ? (My last one did it too, and its linkage was rust free and moving freely)Both the front and rear height corrector mechanisms were seized on mine - I removed and rebuilt the front one finally soaking out over night in a bath of wd40 - rebuilt the corrector valve and refitted it with a new plastic link. Out now works very well and improved the ride a lot too. The rear was so bad that the little ball joint was breaking off, pivot studded and then when freed, showed a yard of free play, I just plumped for a brand new one and the rear ride is also brilliant now, obviously the spheres have to be good but the correctors make a large difference to the ride
The front height corrector last time I checked it a few months ago had no problems with overshoot and at least while the car is parked the height correction is very accurate in both upwards and downwards directions, however while driving the front height sometimes seems to "creep" upwards and be reluctant to come down again until the error is large enough. I've never had a chance to look closely at the front height corrector linkage on this car but my theory is the manual override is out of adjustment causing a bias in one direction.
Simon
1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White
2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White
2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive