I have a Xantia 1.9TD LX with A/C 1997 R reg, the idle speed on the rev counter is just above 1000rpm even with the a/c off it does not drop, is this right?
If not what should it be and how do you set it, a friend told me that you cant just set idle on a diesel you need some computer thing.
Thanks for any help, sorry dont know much about cars but would like to know more.
Xantia idle speed
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RichardW
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Gav,
No this is not right. It should idle at around 1000 rpm when cold, and this should drop to about 850 when it's hot. Check that the accelerator cable is allowing the lever on the pump to fully return to idle stop. As yours is a 97 the fast idle will be operated by a solenoid and vacuum unit - I don't know the exact configuration of this, but it's a fair bet that it is not working. I think it's usually the vacuum unit, and it can be fairly cheaply and easily rectified - try searching the forum and see what comes up.
Richard
No this is not right. It should idle at around 1000 rpm when cold, and this should drop to about 850 when it's hot. Check that the accelerator cable is allowing the lever on the pump to fully return to idle stop. As yours is a 97 the fast idle will be operated by a solenoid and vacuum unit - I don't know the exact configuration of this, but it's a fair bet that it is not working. I think it's usually the vacuum unit, and it can be fairly cheaply and easily rectified - try searching the forum and see what comes up.
Richard
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jack.dempsey
- Posts: 116
- Joined: 05 Mar 2003, 17:57
The two vacuum solenoids can be found on a bracket attached to the 'green blood' reservior. One of these is the fast idle solenoid and the other the a/c solenoid.
How they work. The default setting - engine not running is that the throttle is sprung loaded to the fast idle position (should be about 950 RPM). When the engine warms up the ECU sends a voltage to energise the fast idle solenoid - which allows vacuum (from the vacuum pump) to pull against the diaphram in the fast idle mechanism - this actually pulls against the throttle 'spring' to drop the idle speed to the correct level (about 850 RPM). Now here's the clever bit - if the a/c is switched on, the second vacuum control solendoid is activated and this effectively dumps the vacuum to atmosphere - so the diaphram relaxes and the sprung loaded throttle increases to fast idle (950 RPM). I suppose this is to offest the extra load that the a/c can put on the engine (avoid stalling etc).
Hope that clarifies how these things work. If its any consolation the reason I know all tis is because I researched it when both my solenoids stuck - so like you I get no change to my idle speed - it stays around the 950 RPM mark. I played musical vacuum pipes to demostrate and understand what should happen. I did think about replacing the solenoids but couldn't track down a 'cheap' source (agents wanted about £25 each plus vat). You might get them to free up by slight tapping with a suitable object (spanner say) whilst you energise and de-energise them - 12 volts to the connectors - but remove supply from ECU first, we don't want to upset that little item.
How they work. The default setting - engine not running is that the throttle is sprung loaded to the fast idle position (should be about 950 RPM). When the engine warms up the ECU sends a voltage to energise the fast idle solenoid - which allows vacuum (from the vacuum pump) to pull against the diaphram in the fast idle mechanism - this actually pulls against the throttle 'spring' to drop the idle speed to the correct level (about 850 RPM). Now here's the clever bit - if the a/c is switched on, the second vacuum control solendoid is activated and this effectively dumps the vacuum to atmosphere - so the diaphram relaxes and the sprung loaded throttle increases to fast idle (950 RPM). I suppose this is to offest the extra load that the a/c can put on the engine (avoid stalling etc).
Hope that clarifies how these things work. If its any consolation the reason I know all tis is because I researched it when both my solenoids stuck - so like you I get no change to my idle speed - it stays around the 950 RPM mark. I played musical vacuum pipes to demostrate and understand what should happen. I did think about replacing the solenoids but couldn't track down a 'cheap' source (agents wanted about £25 each plus vat). You might get them to free up by slight tapping with a suitable object (spanner say) whilst you energise and de-energise them - 12 volts to the connectors - but remove supply from ECU first, we don't want to upset that little item.
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KevMayer
- Posts: 1051
- Joined: 12 Sep 2003, 22:01
- x 2
Gav, Try this discussion topic. See my contribution on page 2 it explains how the tickover works.
http://www.andyspares.com/discussionfor ... IC_ID=4212
http://www.andyspares.com/discussionfor ... IC_ID=4212
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civvie
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Dave Burns
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- x 2
There are two elecrovalves side by side right enough, one is for the idle speed at cold start and also idle speed for aircon purposes and is blue in colour.
The other one controls the EGR valve and is green, it has no other function.
If the idle speed increases when you manualy energise the EGR electrovalve, then there must be a problem with the system causing the vacuum to be lost, the feed vacuum should never be dumped to atmosphere, if there is a leak causing the vacuum to be lost in this way then none of the functions it controls will operate as intended.
The electrovalves release the supplied vacuum to the appropriate function when they switch of, closing to the feed vacuum at the same time, vacuum should allways exists up to the valves.
When these valves go bad they don't simply stick, the coil winding in the solenoid goes open circuit (breaks) due to the many thousands of heat up cool down cycles, the idle speed electrovalve usualy goes first because it is powered up for longer periods of time.
Dave
The other one controls the EGR valve and is green, it has no other function.
If the idle speed increases when you manualy energise the EGR electrovalve, then there must be a problem with the system causing the vacuum to be lost, the feed vacuum should never be dumped to atmosphere, if there is a leak causing the vacuum to be lost in this way then none of the functions it controls will operate as intended.
The electrovalves release the supplied vacuum to the appropriate function when they switch of, closing to the feed vacuum at the same time, vacuum should allways exists up to the valves.
When these valves go bad they don't simply stick, the coil winding in the solenoid goes open circuit (breaks) due to the many thousands of heat up cool down cycles, the idle speed electrovalve usualy goes first because it is powered up for longer periods of time.
Dave
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sandancer
- Posts: 31
- Joined: 06 Jun 2003, 13:15
I've been afflicted twice by this problem - first by the rubber vacuum hose splitting where it connects to the egr valve under the inlet manifold, and secondly by the idle speed electrovalve suffering from thermal breakdown - in laymans terms, was ok when cold, but after a few minutes, failed.
A quick check is to reroute a vacuum pipe from the pump (located on the camshaft opposite end to the cambelt) direct to the idle speed actuator (sits on the inlet manifold, rh side). If that pulls in, check all pipes and then suspect the valve.
I'd get it sorted, 'cos fuel consumption increases considerably. New valve cost about £20-30 from dealers and about 15 mins to fit (need drill and two new rivets though).
A quick check is to reroute a vacuum pipe from the pump (located on the camshaft opposite end to the cambelt) direct to the idle speed actuator (sits on the inlet manifold, rh side). If that pulls in, check all pipes and then suspect the valve.
I'd get it sorted, 'cos fuel consumption increases considerably. New valve cost about £20-30 from dealers and about 15 mins to fit (need drill and two new rivets though).
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PicassoPigeon
- Posts: 197
- Joined: 25 Jan 2003, 23:43
Havin a look at my problem today, and the lever that should pull when engine is hot did not move. it had been locked with the idle screws(fast and norm) if i loosen the norm idle screw it will then move but only with me poking it with screwdriver. if i pull the cable that is connected to it, it will not move so i dont think the vacuum would be able to pull that.
went on to look at said vacuum pump and from this 1 pipe comes out of it(is this right). it went down behind the engine to nothing, then next to that was another pipe coming up to the electro valves. the vacuum is doing nothing as its not connected. i put my finger over the end of the pipe from the pump and its not really sucking that much. i would not try to hoover the floor with that it hardly pulled my finger.
any ideas. sorry for the long post.
Gav
went on to look at said vacuum pump and from this 1 pipe comes out of it(is this right). it went down behind the engine to nothing, then next to that was another pipe coming up to the electro valves. the vacuum is doing nothing as its not connected. i put my finger over the end of the pipe from the pump and its not really sucking that much. i would not try to hoover the floor with that it hardly pulled my finger.
any ideas. sorry for the long post.
Gav
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sandancer
- Posts: 31
- Joined: 06 Jun 2003, 13:15
I've got a similar setup with my car and this is what I find:
1) The idle lever does not move much - use a screwdiver to push it over and the revs should change.
2) The vacuum pipe goes from the pump at the end of the camshaft to the two electrovalves next to the hydraulic fluid reservoir where it splits and and goes into the top connection of each. One valve output goes to the idle actuator piston, the other to the EGR valve hidden underneath the inlet manifold.
3) The amout of vacuum is quite low - and your're right, it will not suck up dirt off the floor.
As I mentioned in a previous post, take the output of the vacuum pump directly to the idle actuator piston. If all is ok, the the piston should pull in, moving the lever and reducing the idle speed.
Regards,
Mark
1) The idle lever does not move much - use a screwdiver to push it over and the revs should change.
2) The vacuum pipe goes from the pump at the end of the camshaft to the two electrovalves next to the hydraulic fluid reservoir where it splits and and goes into the top connection of each. One valve output goes to the idle actuator piston, the other to the EGR valve hidden underneath the inlet manifold.
3) The amout of vacuum is quite low - and your're right, it will not suck up dirt off the floor.
As I mentioned in a previous post, take the output of the vacuum pump directly to the idle actuator piston. If all is ok, the the piston should pull in, moving the lever and reducing the idle speed.
Regards,
Mark
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PicassoPigeon
- Posts: 197
- Joined: 25 Jan 2003, 23:43
I have taken the pipe from the vacuum pump and placed it on the idle piston, it pulls in but revs do not change, the cable does move though. From what i can see there is a stop near the cable end that should pull the idle speed lever on fuel pump but this stop is not touching the lever.
There is an adjusting screw near the idle piston that sucks in i have moved this but the stop still does not pull agaist the lever can i move this stop in any way. it looks fixed to me, no screw on the top of it maybe its not got one or is underneath.
The other problem is how should these pipes go back together.
Pipe from vacumm pump goes to electrovalves, does it connect to the push on at the opposite end to LHM res. i cant see any other place for it. then a pipe should be coming out from each electrovalve one going to idle piston and other to EGR, i have no idea where EGR is or if it needs to be connected.
Thanks for everbodys help, its nice to be trying to fix something on my car, with all your help instead of getting seen off. Thanks again.
[:D][:D]
There is an adjusting screw near the idle piston that sucks in i have moved this but the stop still does not pull agaist the lever can i move this stop in any way. it looks fixed to me, no screw on the top of it maybe its not got one or is underneath.
The other problem is how should these pipes go back together.
Pipe from vacumm pump goes to electrovalves, does it connect to the push on at the opposite end to LHM res. i cant see any other place for it. then a pipe should be coming out from each electrovalve one going to idle piston and other to EGR, i have no idea where EGR is or if it needs to be connected.
Thanks for everbodys help, its nice to be trying to fix something on my car, with all your help instead of getting seen off. Thanks again.
[:D][:D]
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Robin
- Posts: 485
- Joined: 01 Jan 2004, 18:45
Hi, have just replaced the electro solenoid valve (the blue terminal one - £9.70) for this problem on my 97 1.9. It is rivetted to a bracket on mine so need to drill out the pop rivets and bolt on the new one. The parts guy says this fails quite regularly so I guess it could be worth testing this out. It should be passing the vaccuum on to the pull off diaphragm attached to the rocker cover when the engine warms up.[:)]
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Dave Burns
- Posts: 1915
- Joined: 14 May 2001, 05:30
- x 2
Pipe from vac. pump goes to a tee piece, then from each side of that to the two valves, pipes then go from the valves to their respective functions, blue to the fast idle diaphragm and green to the EGR diaphragm, the EGR is on the exhaust manifold behind the engine.
You can see it between the branches of the intake manifold from above, though if not fitted, its vacuum supply pipe is not easy to push on due to the restriction.
Its not necessary to have it connected for purposes of engine operation, its there for reasons of polution, to lower NOx (oxides of nitrogen) emissions, having it disconnected wont affect the engine and infact it should run slightly better, doing it is antisocial and possibly unlawful.
There must be no open ends of pipes in the vacuum line or none of it will work.
The cable AFAIK does not have an adjustable nipple at the pump end, but it shouldn't need one either as nothing much can change, have you screwed the adjuster at the diaphragm end in the outward direction, this is the direction to take up slack.
Dave
You can see it between the branches of the intake manifold from above, though if not fitted, its vacuum supply pipe is not easy to push on due to the restriction.
Its not necessary to have it connected for purposes of engine operation, its there for reasons of polution, to lower NOx (oxides of nitrogen) emissions, having it disconnected wont affect the engine and infact it should run slightly better, doing it is antisocial and possibly unlawful.
There must be no open ends of pipes in the vacuum line or none of it will work.
The cable AFAIK does not have an adjustable nipple at the pump end, but it shouldn't need one either as nothing much can change, have you screwed the adjuster at the diaphragm end in the outward direction, this is the direction to take up slack.
Dave
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PicassoPigeon
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paranoid
- Posts: 770
- Joined: 08 Jan 2004, 18:32
Exactly the problem my car had...I to thought the cable was to long but it was fine, (check the nipple is on at the injector pump end)
The blue solenoid was dead, checked by putting 12v to it, it should click if its ok. Tickover was permanently at 1000rpm, changed solenoid (£35 dealer only tried EVERYWHERE) Replaced and it was fine. When cold tickover was 950 rpm after about five minutes comes down to 800 rpm, when aircon is switched on goes back to 950 rpm.
Checked green solenoid at the same time this was ok (£11 from a peugeot dealer)
You may have to adjust the cable by the plunger end. Another way to be sure is to take the pipe from the vacumn pump (at the end of the rocker cover) and put it straight to the plyunger on the end of the cable, this should drop the revs, I drove around like this for a week with no probs.
The blue solenoid was dead, checked by putting 12v to it, it should click if its ok. Tickover was permanently at 1000rpm, changed solenoid (£35 dealer only tried EVERYWHERE) Replaced and it was fine. When cold tickover was 950 rpm after about five minutes comes down to 800 rpm, when aircon is switched on goes back to 950 rpm.
Checked green solenoid at the same time this was ok (£11 from a peugeot dealer)
You may have to adjust the cable by the plunger end. Another way to be sure is to take the pipe from the vacumn pump (at the end of the rocker cover) and put it straight to the plyunger on the end of the cable, this should drop the revs, I drove around like this for a week with no probs.
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davek-uk
- Posts: 447
- Joined: 29 Sep 2003, 21:01
I suspect my idle-control valve is duff too. Idles at just over 1000 with the tubes as they should be. I simply connected the tube from the vacumn pump to the idle piston and she idles at about 900. It has been like this since last November (doesn't time fly!) and I've never had any trouble starting in the cold or running the A/C and it passed its MoT like it too.
Robin, you said you brought a replacement valve for £9.70 - may I ask where from? Everyone else seem to be charged nearly £30 (presumably from Citroen). I do remember an old post that sugested they are also a Peugeot item. At a tenner I'll replace it, but at thirty maybe not.
Robin, you said you brought a replacement valve for £9.70 - may I ask where from? Everyone else seem to be charged nearly £30 (presumably from Citroen). I do remember an old post that sugested they are also a Peugeot item. At a tenner I'll replace it, but at thirty maybe not.