C5 HDi wont start, just clicking - Fixed
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C5 HDi wont start, just clicking - Fixed
Our 2005 C5 estate has been fine (no symptoms of anything) until I went to start it this morning and just got a click and a muffled spinning noise, no attempt for the engine to turn over. Usually with a C5 this is the battery but I have checked the battery and its ok, its not even very old.
On closer inspection this spinning noise was coming from the starter motor but it was not clicking in the usual relay way. We then noticed some smoke from the nsf of the car which quickly cleared, maybe this was a relay burning out?
The starter seemed to have been giving off quite a bit of rusty looking dust and I understand they can become worn with a knackered DMF, which it has recently had replaced. As the starter didn't sound right and had a dusty discharge we thought it would be the starter had failed.
I stripped out the starter and sourced a new Lucus unit which I then fitted. The original starter seemed to have seized up as it could not be turned like the new one. However, the car still will not start, there is the stater clicking and sometimes spinning but its as if there is not enough power to engage the starter fully. It is installed correctly and is identical to the one removed.
The car can be tow started and runs fine.
So, what could be the cause now?
Maybe the relay has burnt out slightly (explaining the smoke earlier) due to the original starter being stuck. There is still power going to the starter as it clicks and the cars lights dim slightly as if it is drawing enough current but the starter is not engaging and spinning.
Where is the relay for the starter? I know there are relays under the fuses (all fine) in the engine bay and also behind the fuse box in the car. But which one is it?
It maybe is an earthing problem but first checks seem to be ok.
Lexia didn't seem of much help apart from the warning of a fault with the glow plug relay ... I'm not sure that would cause this issue and I'm sure I remember this car having that fault already.
At a bit of a loss at the moment
On closer inspection this spinning noise was coming from the starter motor but it was not clicking in the usual relay way. We then noticed some smoke from the nsf of the car which quickly cleared, maybe this was a relay burning out?
The starter seemed to have been giving off quite a bit of rusty looking dust and I understand they can become worn with a knackered DMF, which it has recently had replaced. As the starter didn't sound right and had a dusty discharge we thought it would be the starter had failed.
I stripped out the starter and sourced a new Lucus unit which I then fitted. The original starter seemed to have seized up as it could not be turned like the new one. However, the car still will not start, there is the stater clicking and sometimes spinning but its as if there is not enough power to engage the starter fully. It is installed correctly and is identical to the one removed.
The car can be tow started and runs fine.
So, what could be the cause now?
Maybe the relay has burnt out slightly (explaining the smoke earlier) due to the original starter being stuck. There is still power going to the starter as it clicks and the cars lights dim slightly as if it is drawing enough current but the starter is not engaging and spinning.
Where is the relay for the starter? I know there are relays under the fuses (all fine) in the engine bay and also behind the fuse box in the car. But which one is it?
It maybe is an earthing problem but first checks seem to be ok.
Lexia didn't seem of much help apart from the warning of a fault with the glow plug relay ... I'm not sure that would cause this issue and I'm sure I remember this car having that fault already.
At a bit of a loss at the moment
Last edited by Citroenmad on 12 Nov 2013, 20:01, edited 1 time in total.
Chris
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Onlinemyglaren
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Re: C5 HDi wont start, just clicking
Have you tried to start it since bump-starting?
From your description I would suspect missing teeth from the starter ring.
From your description I would suspect missing teeth from the starter ring.
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Re: C5 HDi wont start, just clicking
Hi Steve,
Yes we have and still the same thing. I thought possible missing teeth too but its not that.
Certainly seems to be something electrical and the smoking I saw would suggest that too. Will check out the relays under the fuses in the engine bay tomorrow.
Yes we have and still the same thing. I thought possible missing teeth too but its not that.
Certainly seems to be something electrical and the smoking I saw would suggest that too. Will check out the relays under the fuses in the engine bay tomorrow.
Chris
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Re: C5 HDi wont start, just clicking
I wonder if it is damaged wiring - insufficient power to engage the pinion.
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Re: C5 HDi wont start, just clicking
Check the engine earth from the top of the gear box, and that the battery terminals are not getting hot when you try and start it.
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Re: C5 HDi wont start, just clicking
Are you certain that the battery is OK, have you tried another one?
Peter
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Re: C5 HDi wont start, just clicking
Yes, that is my thinking or a partially burnt relay maybe. There has to be something significant with the smoke I saw froming from the nsf fuse area.myglaren wrote:I wonder if it is damaged wiring - insufficient power to engage the pinion.
Thanks, I will check the gearbox earth and terminalsRichardW wrote:Check the engine earth from the top of the gear box, and that the battery terminals are not getting hot when you try and start it.
Pretty certain the battery is ok, I'll try on another one from the other C5 just to be sure. When we have had a C5 with a flat batter before they generally do just click which was the initial reaction that it was the battery. The battery is at 12.2v which seems ok. I have tried jump leads from a good battery and charging the current battery.Peter.N. wrote:Are you certain that the battery is OK, have you tried another one?
Peter
Unfortunately the old starter went for exhange with this new one, it'll still be at the local Citroen specialist so will drop by tomorrow and get it back.addo wrote:Yes, a load test is in order.
Also test pinion protrusion with the two starters - they should throw the gear out equally, which you can simulate by levering.
I wonder if the ring gear has walked on the flywheel.
Are you sure it's not a blocked exhaust?
Hopefully it is not the flywheel but that is always a possibility. Its only a few months old and was replaced with genuine parts.
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Re: C5 HDi wont start, just clicking
I wonder if the pinion is stuck in the starter ring (This would cause smoke because the starter motor is stalled).
Put the car in a high gear and see if it can be pushed backwards if you are lucky you will hear a click as it frees, you can the try starting again.
Exect
Put the car in a high gear and see if it can be pushed backwards if you are lucky you will hear a click as it frees, you can the try starting again.
Exect
Re: C5 HDi wont start, just clicking
is the new starter new or recon?
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Re: C5 HDi wont start, just clicking
Thanks again for the suggestions
I have tow started the car and driven it, the starter is not stuck in place and it has been replaced.
The starter is brand new, a Lucas one.
It would seem to me that the original starter seized up, which has burnt something out, now with the new starter in there is not enough power being sent for it to extend fully and turn the flywheel. It's a theory ... however, I can't find any relays for the starter ...
I have tow started the car and driven it, the starter is not stuck in place and it has been replaced.
The starter is brand new, a Lucas one.
It would seem to me that the original starter seized up, which has burnt something out, now with the new starter in there is not enough power being sent for it to extend fully and turn the flywheel. It's a theory ... however, I can't find any relays for the starter ...
Chris
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Re: C5 HDi wont start, just clicking
id say maybe the power cable to the starter from the battery then maybe..might not be giving the starter enough amps if its been over heating and damaged the cable..but same goes for the earth lead too
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Re: C5 HDi wont start, just clicking
There's no relay on the power side of the starter - just an eff off big cable direct from the battery. The 'relay' is the solenoid on the starter itself. If there is enough power to engage the solenoid and get the starter to spin, then the only other (electrical) fault is supply or earth.
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Re: C5 HDi wont start, just clicking
Good thinking Richard, I'll get the earth checked
Chris
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Re: C5 HDi wont start, just clicking - Fixed
Well after checking the earth wires and finding nothing wrong, we decided it must be the relay/fuse box, just next to the ECU. This is where the smoke came from when the starter motor jammed. Its a sealed un unit and does not allow for the replacement of single relays.
A new one was ordered and arrived this morning, pretty simple to fit and it has done the job, the car is back to normal and starts no problem.
So I suspect the starter seized and the relay box got a little warm as a result. The local specialist says he has replaced quite a few of those.
A new one was ordered and arrived this morning, pretty simple to fit and it has done the job, the car is back to normal and starts no problem.
So I suspect the starter seized and the relay box got a little warm as a result. The local specialist says he has replaced quite a few of those.
Chris
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