1998 Citroen Xantia 1.9TD threw cambelt damaged engine.

[falling-out-with-my-car]

Hi,

I have a 1998 1.9TD xantia estate S2 Model, today it threw the cambelt whilst the engine was only idling and Now I have a broken camshaft, I have lifted the Cam Cover to find the break on the drivers side of the engine, lucky it didnt break into more pieces as I have heard they can shatter in three places.
The Cap shells are all still intact where the rocker cover bolts down to but I am pretty worried of further damaged deeper down.
The cambelt was not due for changing untill another 24K had elapsed but thats the way it goes I suppose.

So My options are replace the camshaft and hope noting else is damaged or completely replace the whole head and camshaft
or look for another engine.
This is where my lack of knowledge sneeks in Does anyone know if I have to have the ECU re-programmed for an engine change or can I maybe buy a MK1 lump and put that in My S2? My Bosch fuel Pump has a electronic chip on top off the fuel pump with three wires going to it, the car also has EGR and a lift sensor on No3 Cylinder and a TDC sensor on the flywheel. I removed the catalytic converter years ago and she has been passing the MOT's without it just fine.
Is it curtains for the old girl or do I have a chance at reviving her and getting her back on the road?
she had new spheres all round this year , has never ever been welded underneath, (waxoiled regularly) she also had a new heater matrix this year to along with new brakes and disks all round, it does seem to be a bit of a waste giving up on her.
I have owned her for nearly 9 years.
I do have a small burnnig temptation to look for another xantia but it would have to be similar as so many good parts are on the old one.

your experienced advice and or Wisdom would be appreciated Please?

thanks in advance
absolutely Gutted
Nigel.

[CitroJim]

Oh dear Nigel..

Wonder if Xac still has an engine for sale...

Problem is, if the camshaft breaks then it's almost certain one or more cam caps will be broken or cracked and therefore scrap. These cannot be replaced as they are line-bored at manufacture time so effectively the whole head is scrap.

You can change the engine and not have any issues with the pump at all but you may need to check the flywheels are the same so that the ECU 'sees' the correct signals from it for timing.

Essentially the bare bones of all 1.9TD engines are the same and interchangeable so a 1993 originally with mechanical injection will be perfectly happy with an electronic pump, EGR and all the other crap they gained over the years. The only issue is that a very early engine may not have a vacuum pump fitted but the place to fit it is there and simply blanked off.

Personally I'd not swap the full engine but just get a decent reconditioned head and pop that on...

Out of interest, when was the cambelt last changed?

[Xaccers]

Mine is indeed still available. It's a MK1 which has had the keypad removed whilst running so the immobiliser is in a disabled state, however, I'm not sure what would happen if connected up to a MK2 with immobiliser, any thoughts Jim?

[falling-out-with-my-car]

Hi, Jim
Thanks for the info it ia a very big help in the circumstances.
The belt was changed almost 3 years ago and it has done 26K since then so much for a 36K service interval my last one before that went 50K before it was changed on advice of an independant. the belt broke around its radius it split in half alowing it to stretch and jump several notches. it hasnt snapped as such.
I was thinking of buying an earlier xantia maybe a year earlier a Mk1 and using it as a doner vechicle for the engine and gearbox seeing as I had a few gearbox issues in the cold winter weather difficulty changing gear in very low temperatures.
used diesel xantia estates are quite highly priced at the moment

Xac,

Sounds Interesting that engine ermm what do you think on the imobiliser issue Jim?

regards Nigel..

[jgra1]

Nigel, at the risk getting shot by a penguin here

for what it's worth, I think a cheap 2nd hand camshaft and a new belt and try it.... wont cost much

I had same thing on a 309 TD years ago.. and got a couple of camshaft caps and the first one I tried, when bolted up with some oil, allowed the camshaft to turn easily.. job done,,,

;0 John

[falling-out-with-my-car]

John,

That would be easy if i was confident enough to do it all myself and john I am not being dismissive at all
(I appreciate where you are comming from) but unfortunately owing to the state of my health I have to put it in the independants garage to get it all done which means quite a bit of money spent to replace the camshaft and cambelt and thats a second hand camshaft to, this is why I was thinking maybe play it safe and source another complete head which would mean lifting off the old one and checking out the pistons for damage, fortunately the engine was only idling we were not bombing down the motorway at 80 mph I am pretty sure this would have done a lot more damage to the engine.
Jim suggested a whole complete head and I am not entirely sure that the shell caps are not cracked they could be.. its a little difficult to see with just the rocker cover removed they could be cracked even a hairline crack would be a bit iffy.
It all seems to be a bit of a gamble and an exspensive one if you don't go far enough to make sure the rest of the engine isnt damaged.

cheers Nigel.

[Xaccers]

Not long after I got Cassy her cambelt snapped doing 40mph one night on the M25. As with you, she was actually due one about 20K later and the garage I bought her from had agreed to do it. Had I known I'd end up doing it myself I'd have taken the garage up on their offer of knocking £100 off her price.
Anyway, the cam was in 3 pieces and the caps were all cracked, oh and the studs that hold them on were bent slightly.
I went down the replacement caps and cam route, it took 2 cams and about 10 caps to get a good enough match.
She ran well, but alas the lock nut on the cam tensioner pivot stud worked free letting the tensioner slide out, bending the stud and eventually jamming the belt between the pump sprocket and it's cover. My own fault as I heard a whining noise which was the belt cutting into the cover but had no time to investigate as I was moving house that weekend.
Fearing the worst I nearly got rid of Cassy and that would have been a tragedy.
While she was off the road I bought Dex, who just wasn't as good.
Enter Sir Jim. He offered to help take a look at her as Citroen wanted £600 just to fit a cam belt and turn her over (without checking the cam for damage!).
We discovered the issue, and fitted a new belt, water pump and cover. Unfortunately her tax ran out the day we were working on her and in our haste the timing wasn't quite right.
Jim drove her to a friend's house with a drive so I could sorn her, the burning coal and flames out her exhaust was rather scary!
We sorted her timing eventually, and got her back on the road for another 6 months before one morning I turned her over and she just went "phud"
I took the cam cover off to check and one of the caps had cracked, scored the cam and that in turn had scored it's journal writing off the head.
Jim and I replaced the head over a weekend, working in the street and late into the night. It was fun, but not something I'd want to do again!
The cylinders were spotless, you could still see the honing lines so running 100% veg for a few years doesn't damage the engine, but there were some faint imprints of when the pistons kissed the valves.

So while just replacing the cam can be done to make the engine run again, there's no guarantee how long it will last.

[jgra1]

ahh ok Nigel...

well, Xac's motor would/could be a good alternative to a top end swap,,

J

[CitroJim]

Nigel, at the risk getting shot by a penguin here

No, absolutely fair comment John and no risk of being shot by Penguins or anything else. I'm taking the safe approach here as swapping cam caps around from head to head can lead to further trouble if the clearances are too tight or indeed too loose. If you have enough caps to choose from then it's quite likely you may be able to find a fair match but it's more by luck than judgement in my experience. However, even if the match seems good the results long-term can be unpredictable.

EDIT: Xac's experience is an illustration of what can happen a long while down the road...

Also, I play safe here because I cannot advocate something that someone else might do with perhaps less care than you or Nigel would, end up wrecking an engine and then blaming the FCF for it.

Nigel, I'd recommend you swap pumps between engine always. Pumps don't stand storage well and soon deteriorate if stored full of diesel or even worse if stored full of veg. I've seen the results enough times and if you tried to use a pump of unknown provenance at worst it'll be seized and break the cam again or at best it won't work. A pump swap when the engine out is an easy job and in any case you'd replace the belt on any replacement engine anyway. If you ever contemplate using a pump of unknown origin than do have it overhauled before use.

26K was a very short mileage. I'm wondering if it was incorrectly tensioned or one of the tensioner or jockeys failed. I shall be very interested to hear if you could find a cause Nigel.

[jgra1]

ok Jim..understood.. - I only had one experience of a broken camshaft and possibly was lucky.,., the car ran well again for some years.. but it was a situation that didn't lend itself to any thing but luck

the words concerning not advocating blame towards FCF for suggestions from posters somehow worries me a little though .. it could just be me..

'26K was a very short mileage. I'm wondering if it was incorrectly tensioned or one of the tensioner or jockeys failed. I shall be very interested to hear if you could find a cause Nigel.'

me too.,

[myglaren]

'26K was a very short mileage. I'm wondering if it was incorrectly tensioned or one of the tensioner or jockeys failed. I shall be very interested to hear if you could find a cause Nigel.'

My first thought was that perhaps a tensioner or idler had seized.

[citroenxm]

My second thoughts for an early breakage is Leaking Water Pump, allowing water onto the belt, and preamture breakage.

Were you needing to top the cooling system up at all??

Xac is obviously closer, but I also have loads of XUD heads, and a complete XUD engine too...

[falling-out-with-my-car]

strange isnt it, Ive always had a new water pump and pulleys replaced at cambelt change time religeously, its l;ike the false economny of changing a gear box and not doing the clutch to me, I think the fact that the car has been stored outside and not done many miles for the last three years is basically the problem when it was used a lot more I had far fewer problems arising. pulleys have been squeeky for while esspecially if the car has been parked up in damp weather for two or three days without use, maybe your right about a pulley sticking a bit of rust in a bearing would be enough to seize one wouldn't it.
I remember when the head gasket went on my BX 1.7 D when it was replaced she never quite felt the same again I dont know why but the engine lost its punch completely. Ive had no oil leaks and certainly no water leaks since the Heater Matrix was done back in February this year by Barry at Bourne. just for the record I wouldn't dare come back to the FCF and accuse the people of something like that. like I said it seems a game of chance, just replacing the cam shaft alone.
The bottom of the engine if ok should be in good nick with oil changes every 3K.
Oh dear it seems Ive got some very hard decisions to make here, Thanks everyone for your advice and Xac I'll PM you if I decide to keep her and repair her.
Jim I do understand your good advice about having a pump overhauled but they want £80 just to bolt it to the testing machine and then it can cost as much as £1500 to have worked on, I could buy a nice late xantia for that and an estate to.

thanks again.

regards Nigel.

[citronut]

i always thought these cam belts were good for 72k not 36k, although i belive 3 years is what i recommend for a replacement regardless of mileage,

sounds like maybe the belt was running against one of the covers at some point in its run,
which has cut through the belt,

also if a cam shaft has broken i would say there is definite valve damage,

as its the valve being shoved up by the piston that has smashed the cam,

[citroenxm]

If it went at idle theres a good chance the valves would of survived.. as the design of the engine is that the valves are directly flat over the top of the pistons the energy force passes stright through the valve and to the cam.

The size of xud valves too are quite meaty.. once ive only ever seen bent valves on an xud.