Dispatch 1.6 HDI 2009 1st gear crunching

[markt1]

Hello guys i have a 1.6 hdi with an annoying crunching when engageing 1st gear but if i take my time from neutral it slips in without the crunch or slip it in second then straight into first it ok but straight from neutral at a fast snatch it crunches all other gears are fine its only done 30k and i got it at 22k so it may have had a hard life for that 22k.
I have been in the spanner trade around 20 years ago and now a car sprayer so i have some knowlegde and i have changed the gearbox oil with recomended oil and i found some metal fillings at the bottom of the pan when i drained it, all gears slot in fine when engine not running so i dont suspect linkage and it doesn't matter wether its warm or cold i still have this issue with first gear im now just about sure the box has an issue with first gear and needs a recon but i wondered if any of you regular mechanics thought otherwise..thanks in advance
Cheers Mark

[Peter.N.]

Sounds like typical synchro wear, no doubt brought about by rough treatment. You can replace the hub but in this day and age its cheaper to replace the gearbox with a secondhand one.

Peter

[Lighty]

Personally I would suspect the Clutch, or more likely the Dual mass flywheel, if tis has become unstable, it will cause the clutch to not disengage fully even when you have the pedal fully down.

[markt1]

Thanks for the replys one things for sure it's box off to inspect the clutch first, don't shoot me down but I thought on a 2009 1.6 van didn't have a dual mass.
Oh the joys of modern motoring
Cheers Mark

[markt1]

Also with so many boxes if I were to try and get a replacement would anyone know the model of my gearbox or would main steeler tell me.
Regards Mark

[Peter.N.]

If it was clutch trouble it would affect all the gears especially reverse, if its only crunching on one gear it will be the box.

Peter

[markt1]

Hmmm I've just been talking to a Citroen mechanic and he said straight away the first gear syncro is at fault and can be replaced with the box in situ and he has repaired a few for first gear issues he's getting a price on the parts tomorrow and said its a 2hr job crack on son
I will keep you all informed of my antics.
Cheers Mark

[Peter.N.]

Pleased to hear it, a little surprised though, first gear is normally in the depth of the mechanics and requires fairly complete dismantling. They must have changed gearbox design some what since I last dismantled one.

Peter

[markt1]

Well I've ended up taking box off mr magic has become unresponsive saying I'll get back to you with a price....well I've priced syncro up £170+ vat and labour probably will be £100+ for a quick fix that may end up costing me more.
So I'm doing it the right way...this morning 2.5 hrs to remove the box on a ramp with my mate and I've took it to Topgear in cleckheaton for repair, the flywheel is a solid one and the clutch is well worn at 30k I bought the van when it had20k and it had a tow bar on so it may well have been worked hard
So repair refit with new clutch hopefully Mon/Tuesday
Cheers Mark

[Peter.N.]

Pleased you've got a result. We always used to repair gearboxes because the cost of a replacement was out of the reach of most people that ran used cars, things are very different now with so many cars being scrapped.

Peter

[markt1]

Well gearbox is back in the guys at Topgear seem to have done a good job they said they have replaced 2 hubs 1st and 2nd gear. I've fitted a LUK clutch aswel and did the pollen air and fuel filters, the pollen is easy the air a little fiddly.
I ask what gear oil and they recommended 10/40 semi engine oil which I put in it.
Cheers Mark.

[RichardW]

I very much doubt 10/40 engine oil is right for this box - I'll check later in my C4 Pic manual which has a similar engine / box. Citroen boxes normally need 75W/80 gear oil.

[RichardW]

Checked our handbook, and indeed it calls for 75W/80 gear box oil I'd change it, unless you want to be having the box out again before too long....

[markt1]

Yes my book says the same Richard but when i went to get oil the other week when it started with the problems the local factors couldn't make their mind up if it was mineral or semi, to be honest it seems weird to me but they are the specilists in gearboxes and this is not the first time ive heard of 10/40 semi in a gear box and when you think of the extremes it goes through in a engine sump to lube a engine then a box should have no ill effect from it gis a clue But i am tempted to drain and put 75-80 semi in

[Mandrake]

In my opinion it would be complete madness to knowingly leave completely the wrong oil in the gearbox after all the hassle of having it out to have a faulty synchro repaired. Why take the risk for the sake of a few litres of oil ?

10/40 engine oil is NOTHING like 75W/80 gear oil in viscosity. Modern engine oils are very thin even compared to old fashioned engine oils, let alone a much thicker manual gear oil. The synchro's are sensitive to the oil viscosity, you run the risk of poor gear changes or the synchro's wearing out rapidly with the wrong oil.

If you could use normal engine oil in a manual box the manufacturers would do that, but they don't. Just because engine oil is "good" for an engine doesn't mean its good for everything else, as the demands and requirements are very different in different applications.

Sounds to me like your factors are saying whatever they can just to get a sale of whatever they have in stock.